startfire 12

Darryl Hattenhauer

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Anybody got a starfire 12 besides Jake and me? I tried reversing the strings to see if it would sound more like a Rickencracker, but it didn't. Would De Armonds make it sound more like a Rick? It has maple b & s (as opposed to Gibson bs).
 

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I have a Rick 360 12'er - while I don't have a Starfire 12, I do have a Starfire 3 - and I must say there are many differences between these guitars besides the pups that, IMHO, formulate that unique Rick jangle.
 

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Yes - all maple - t as well as b&s - and the neck as well (rosewood fb). And the pups are single coils. Mine is a newer rendition that doesn't have the coveted "toaster" pups - but the sound is there.

You can see the specs at:

http://www.rickenbacker.com/model.asp?model=360/12

Rick calls it a "semi-acoustic" - I am writing from my daughter's now, but if you'd like, I'll check it personally whan I get home to see if it has a center bolck, etc. I can say it's acoustic sound is very low and good for practice only. Won't even drown out my bad McGuinn singing attempts.
 

Darryl Hattenhauer

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Yes, I'd like to know if it's got a soundblock. And is it all plywood? I think my starfire 12 is all plywood. Acoustically, it sounds like poop. I suppose a solid top is necessary to get a good acoustic tone out of anything.
 

teleharmonium

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I was wondering about the Starfire XII lately. I'm kind of surprised to hear that yours isn't sounding good to you. Does it have the smaller humbuckers, or the full sized ones ? The smaller ones, I would think would be preferable on a 12 if you're going for chime, because they are a bit brighter.

I'm kind of into Rickenbackers. The old toaster pickups are simple single coil designs, not particularly high output, and they are important to the sound. But also, the neck joint and bridge make big contributions. In both cases they are not optimized for sustain, strength, or reliability, but they have a way of de emphasizing mids and adding harmonics and resonance in the high frequencies. That bridge especially is cheesy, since the only way the energy can get transferred from the strings to the top is through the 4 screws, in the corners of the bridge, and the other end of each screw isn't even touching the top of the guitar, they just stand on the metal plate which is in turn screwed to the top. Usually, they aren't all making even contact to the bridge mounting plate, because you want a little angle on the bridge, which further contributes to the controlled chaos. The whole effect is kind of like, halfway between a tele bridge, and one of those Danelecto sitar "buzz" bridges !

They also use a high pass cap on the bridge pickup (or at least the old ones and vintage reissues do), to further cut lows as long as you're using the bridge pickup, or both of them.

In conclusion I think it is nearly impossible to nail a Ric 12 sound without the frustrating but crucial Ric bridge. On the other hand I have a Danelectro 12 with an aftermarket all metal adjustable bridge, a high pass cap on the bridge pickup, and more vintage correct lipstick pickups in RW/RP configuration, and a blend knob replacing the switch; I got the thing in this modded state for a grand total of $150 (!) and it's as close as I've heard to a Ric that isn't a Ric. I think the metal nut on the Dano helps it get into Ric territory.
 

teleharmonium

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I bet a metal bridge would help. Hopefully you'll be able to find one with adjustable saddles for all 12 strings (rather than 6 adjustable saddles) for good intonation.

Rics use a .0047 uf capacitor in the signal path between the bridge pickup hot wire, and the volume pot for that pickup. Since the signal is actually running through this cap, what it does is prevent the lowest frequencies from making it through, hence the term high pass. Now, with a different type of pickup, some other value of capacitor might work better, but I guess it would make sense to start with the same value and see if it needs tweaking. Since a Starfire is an archtop with no back panel (unless a IV/XII body is different than the II/III I am familiar with ?), you'd want to have a pro remove the electronics, solder in the cap, and test it out - maybe you could be there for that, to make the call on the value ?

You might want to try the bridge swap first, and see if you want to go to the trouble of adding the cap. Also, one thing that you can do is put the cap on a pull switch built into the volume pot, so you can bypass it if you want. This sort of thing is a lot easier to do on a Ric because the electronics are mounted on a removeable pickguard over a big hole in the body.

Anyway, if you go this route, you want to have the guy use a type of capacitor that is considered good for audio. I used a polypropylene cap, which I think Ric uses too. Paper in oil caps might be even better for this.

I'm not sure if I would do the cap mod on a Guild. I mentioned it because it is part of the way Rics get their sound, but you might be better off just turning the bass down on your amp, using the bridge pickup alone, and not modding the guitar. Modding a Korean Dan-o is one thing, but a Guild costs real money.

What kind of amp do you usually play the Guild 12 through ?
 
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:D My SFX11 has the old tailpiece & wood bridge. I don't play it much but my buddy loves to play on 12 strings. To my ears, it sounds pretty damn good. I haven't messed w/ it. The only thing I was thinking about the other day was where to get an adjustable TOM style so all 12 strings could be better intonated. I don't know if I'd do it but...
 
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:D My SFX11 has the old tailpiece & wood bridge. I don't play it much but my buddy loves to play on 12 strings. To my ears, it sounds pretty damn good. I haven't messed w/ it. The only thing I was thinking about the other day was where to get an adjustable TOM style so all 12 strings could be better intonated. I don't know if I'd do it but...
 
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