Do you really want to see Fender building Guild archtops?

guildzilla

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Given the discussion about Guild possibly building electrics again and reestablishing the wider archtop line and the long thread about Fender, I'm wondering if folks on here really want to see this happen under Fender.

My thought is that if they don't do it absolutely right on the instrument side, and with a full marketing committment, that I'd rather they not bother reintroducing the archtops and other electrics. At the same time, I hope Guild always make Artist Awards, etc.

I can't see Fender doing this at all (because of competition from Gibson at the USA-build price points) unless they're Guilds built in Asia. And I don't want that, don't want to see Guild get Gretsched.
 

Squawk

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I would think that's exactly what would happen - look how much Japanese-made Gretsches go for these days.
 

Mark WW

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Fender has done a nice job (no one's perfect) with bringing the quality of the Getsches back up to snuff. They breathed some life in to an excellent product that needed help. The Japanese and some of the newer Korean Electromatics have represented excellent values. I hate to see Guild electrics discontinued. They really were excellent archtops.

I would welcome Japanese or American production of an icon!

Regards,

Mark
 

dklsplace

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...unless they're Guilds built in Asia. And I don't want that, don't want to see Guild get Gretsched.

Gretsches were already being imported to the US prior to the deal with Fender.

It was my search for a 6120 that finally turned me to Guild. 8)
 

california

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Taking Guild acoustics to Tacoma seemed to be a move in the right direction by preserving the best of the brand, maybe they'll take the clue and do the same for electrics.

If the guitar was uniquely Guild, I'd certainly consider one.
 
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I think the absolute best we could hope for would be for Guild to get Gretsched. The new Japanese Gretsches, especially after the design improvements of the past couple of years, are great guitars.

I suspect that what's more likely is that Guild will get DeArmondized. The DeArmonds were decent guitars for the money, but nothing like the Guilds they were (sort of) modeled after. If Fender's treatment of the Guild acoustic line is any indication, they will use the brand as a placeholder for their mid-range Chinese and Indonesian imports. They'll probably be decent instruments, but likely as generic as an Ibanez Artcore. Maybe one notch above that.

Then again, Fender already has that line covered to some degree with the Gretsch Electromatics. The newest 16" Electromatic, with a floating bridge, B6 Bigsby, and DeArmond pickups is a great guitar. Don't see how or why Fender would bring in Guild archtops to compete with it.

Maybe there's good news ahead -- but I doubt it.
 

teleharmonium

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Taking the market overall into account, I think the only approach that makes sense is for Guild archtops to be marketed as high quality USA made jazz guitars that are a better value than Gibson. I'm not sure if they are ready for that nor which plant it would involve, but the one thing Fender has never really had is a viable alternative to the Gibson flagship jazz guitars with good representation on the market. In other words, it would be a lot like Heritage, but with a cooler brand, a little bit further from the actual Gibson designs (but in a good way IMO) and better marketing and availability. The guitars should street for 1400-1800 (except the Artist Award which would be made in small numbers) and the goal would be to become the most attractive option for the somewhat budget conscious serious player who wants high quality and likes the guitar to be USA made. The guitars being Guilds would be the quality alternative for Gibson and Gretsch sounds for those that don't want an import or a crapshoot. Of course, we know that Guild sounds are more than worthwhile on their own, but we're the intelligensia and too few in number to make this work; sales would need to move over from Gibson and Heritage in order for it to be sustainable. I really think the anti-globalization backlash is only starting and would be a big plus in terms of marketing; it's become rare and it's the cornerstone of appeal for Gibson and Heritage and, to some extent, Rickenbacker.

The models could be limited to Starfire III and IV, Bluesbird, one or two X series models (one of which would be an ES175 competitor, the other one a 6120 competitor like the Rockabilly they were doing), and the Artist Award. Perhaps a Starfire bass as well ? It seems like the old ones have been generating increasing interest. If it starts to turn a profit after about 5 years, they could add a few more models.
 

guildzilla

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The scenario Teleharmonium paints is what I would want to do if I were on the marketing staff. Unfortunately, since joining the board and reading the information you guys have to share, I no longer think Fender will go that way. As long as Guild tried to compete at the top level, taking on Gibson with USA-made archtops like the old days, I'd be delighted.

I don't want to see legendary stuff - like Starfires - treated as a second-tier product. Fender may have saved the Gretsch models, but shirley (hi, coastie) they changed the aura.
 
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I think the only approach that makes sense is for Guild archtops to be marketed as high quality USA made jazz guitars that are a better value than Gibson.

That would be great -- it's what Guild was for decades. I'd like to think they could be again, but there's no way Fender will do this for guitars that sell for $1400-1800. That's the lower end of the Japanese Gretsches -- and the premium nitro models go for closer to $3k. I doubt anyone will be offering a sub-$2k US-made archtop any time soon. Heritage is probably the best remaining bargain in that territory.

I don't see how Fender could offer a US-made guitar that would compete with the Gretsch line. I could see a US high end series (the Artist Award, Benedetto, etc.) -- but that's about all they've held on to, and I'm sure those lines cost them a lot to sustain. Or, a lower end series, priced below MIJ Gretsches. The problem is, they would have trouble sustaining the high end if they devalue the brand by offshoring the entry level guitars. They've done this to some extent with Gretsch, but Gretsch has always had a stronger iconic personality than Guild.

I'd like to be wrong, but I don't see much future for Fender Guilds. I know Guild was on economic thin ice before the buyout, but I don't think Guild will survive in anything but name only now that it's been brought in house.
 

teleharmonium

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california91207 - I would hope what I wrote would be fairly obvious to them, but if not, they should definitely hire somebody !

Smiert Spionam said:
I'd like to think they could be again, but there's no way Fender will do this for guitars that sell for $1400-1800. That's the lower end of the Japanese Gretsches -- and the premium nitro models go for closer to $3k. I doubt anyone will be offering a sub-$2k US-made archtop any time soon.

Perhaps I lowballed it a bit, although it's comparable to the prices when they were still in production not all that long ago. Of course, most of those models would all be laminate wood formed tops rather than hand carved solid tops. In any case, I think you need a strong incentive to get people away from the Gibson brand name, and the solution that I would see is the combination of better quality, lower price, and marketing that stresses the history of Guild. The focus should be on describing the company as always having been where the serious musicians know to get the best deal on the best instrument, since it happens to be true, and everybody likes to think of themselves as being in the know and serious (especially if they're not).

Re the Gretsch comparison, I think it is important to remember that the Fender-Gretsch contractual relationship could end, and that Fender has some latitude to shake things up in the business if they want to. They would make more money off of guitars they were actually building, you would think, and a real entry into Gibson's market share is something they should have been wanting for decades. Also, justly or not, Gretsch guitars haven't had much of a market share for jazz players in quite a while, and they are not a big factor in the market for rock musicians that want a Les Paul type of thing. So, I guess my theory is that Gretsch sales don't take away all that much from Gibson nor Heritage, and even if Fender disagreed and thought Gretsch would undermine the sales potential of a restarted and more widely distributed and promoted Guild line, they still have financial incentive to go in that direction provided they think they could make it work.
 

billydlight

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Let's get together an investor group, much like Bill Schultz did in the early 80's when he helmed the team that bought Fender from CBS.

We could do a leveraged buyout, and make Guilds the way we want, we'll hire back Carlo Greco, and Willie Fritscher and make them in NJ again.
What do you say boys?? Let's stop talking and do something.
 

guildzilla

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Can you do a hostile take-over just because you're honked off?

I don't want to put out any money, you see, but any effort that resembles the Boston Tea Party would be cool.

Actually, I see the points being made here. One, Gibson's prices leave room for USA-made archtop competition. Two, for a few decades, Guild competed as well as any company ever did, and better guitars were made at both companies, arguably as a result of that competition. Three, Fender should see the opportunity, want the challenge, and aspire to make Guild more respected than it ever was.

But I think they decided not to fight that battle. Easier investment returns from other strategies.
 

john_kidder

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OK, folks, here's the deal:

Take the same question back 40 years ago, to 1966. Change one key word, so it goes from "Do we really want [musical conglomerate] Fender making Guild archtops? to "Do we really want [electrical parts manufacturer] Avnet making Guild archtops?"

There were a bunch of loyal Guild-types around then, for sure. Had they had access to this sort of world-wide forum to talk to each other, I'm willing to bet that they would have complained like hell about some soul-less money-grubbing colossus taking their fine company of crafstmen and running it for profit.

So what happened? Avnet had the money and the vision to take Guild to Westerly, where most of the guitars we all know and love were made. Maybe Fender will do something like that, maybe they won't. But just because they're a corporation with other things n their mind than just making guitars doesn't make them evil - maybe they'll enable others who do love to build instruments to do so.

And, Billy, I'm in. Let's just raise the money and do it. [/img]
 

billydlight

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OK let's go. Which one of you guys is a lawyer? Teleharmonium should write the buisness plan. I will start looking for money. I used to work at Fender I know Bill Mendello and Larry Moudy. I will call them and sound them out on the idea. It is not as crazy as it sounds. It could probably be done fairly easy. Fender is a privately held company, so you don't have all the red tape.
They are obviously over it when it comes to Guild. We could probably get DeArmond too. Start making Dynasonics right again as well.
 

teleharmonium

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Deal !

Dynasonics done right is a great idea. We would need a lawyer to go over the trademark issues with DeArmond, because if the legal basis is there or can be made to be there, Gretsch, Duncan and TV Jones, and Gibson if they're still doing a Duane model should be paying for the visual clones they make or use. So long as it is enforceable, licensing should be designed to strongly encourage them to just buy the new DeArmond brand model 200 adjustable alnico polepiece flagship model from us (but we could take their money either way, as allowing an upgrade path as well as collecting the initial license fee for say the cheapo versions on Electromatic import guitars allows us to get paid twice for the pickups on one guitar).

While we're at it we should buy/obtain/secure the Franz/Fransch name as well so we can reissue those. Naturally we would do it with a choice of two mounting plates or extra mounting holes and covers so they can straight retrofit onto a P90 as well.
 

coastie99

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IMG_0582.jpg

I have been spending long hours in the laboratory, designing and now constructing, a prototype of our new budget model. The finished article should be ready to present to the Board in around two weeks.
In all likelihood, it will not feature the pickups shown. Rather, modern Supro replicas, to cash in on The White Stripes/Raconteurs vibe.
Incidentally, one of the Raconteurs plays an Aristocrat.

Darryl is currently auditioning applicants for an all-girl band ("Heinie-Chick") who will promote our new axe on T.V. and at live gigs. Nice casting-couch you have there, Darryl !
Jeff is currently negotiating with the show-biz people through his association with Cher and the American Idol people.

And the big one !!

It can now be revealed that Hans is not in fact, in The U.S.
He is in fact, at Heineken headquarters, where the Heinie exec's are reportedly extremely excited about this development, and very keen to get on board with us. Haven't heard from Hans in a few days, and couldn't understand what he was saying last time we spoke. Hang in there, Hans !! It's dirty work, I know, but someone has to do it !

It's all go, people !!
 
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