George Gruhn artilcle on the Pros & Cons of Collectors

West R Lee

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Interesting article P. I'd never buy the "collectors hoard them all" arguement since you and I still don't seem to have too much trouble finding what we want. I heard the same story this past weekend in Arlington from vendors.

I do believe that Westerly Guilds are becoming a little harder to find, but if one is prudent and persistent, they can still be found. I think it stands to reason that a line of guitars (Westerly) that was discontinued and now somewhat sought after, would begin to become a little more scarce 5 years down the road. That's the real reason I always have my eyes and ears open. Hard to imagine that a REAL musician could not do the same, in fact, if I made my living making music, I'd probably become pretty good at locating the guitars that I really wanted.

Good read P...thanks,

West
 

Walter Broes

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Ugh....I started grinding my teeth as soon as I got to this sentence : "Are musicians really deserving of these instruments? "

I can't deal with that whole attitude. I know a couple of "collectors" (not all collectors are the same btw, some are great, a lot of them are real jerks in my opinion), and I do know a few who have some beautiful, wonderful instruments, but cannot play them. Are THEY "deserving" of these instruments?!?

Gruhn's examples are a bit on the extreme side, he likes to talk about Loar F-5's, prewar Martins and sunburst Les Pauls, the holy grails of fretted stringed instrument collecting.
I'd like to know what he thinks of the guy I know here in town who has the almost identical twin to my cherished (but played, scratched, repaired, refretted, and yes, customised) '62 X175 but cannot play an open E chord to save his life. He used to come up to me after gigs "to talk about his guitar, same as mine" until I asked him in an irritated tone of voice whether he'd sell it to me. "No, no, never selling that one!" was his reply. I walked away, resisting the obvious "well, if you can't even play guitar, why the FXXK do you have it in the first place!?!" question. I bet he likes to stand in front of his bedroom mirror with it, miming to some record, pretending he's a badass guitar slinger.

I guess Gruhn's reply would be something like "so future generations can appreciate it, unmolested by those horrible musician types", and like I said, I cannot deal with that attitude AT ALL.
I think people like that should get into stamp collecting, period.
 

Mr. P ~

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I agree whith you completely on that!! My one conversation with Gruhn left me with the opinion that he is an extremely knowledgable jerk.

I could be wrong......
:roll:
 

hideglue

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Gruhn is part of the entire problem of overpriced, vintage instruments. So naturally, he would like to see them as pristine objects in a case rather than intruments in ones hands.

I'd rather hear them (banged up & all) played by the likes of Blake or Monroe than to see them coddled with all their matching capacitor #, original case candy, etc B.S.!!

He makes his living by creating a market for investors and not musicians. Who else but an investor would shell out the long green for '70s Fenders or '80s L.P.s? Certainly a real player knows they're garbage and not worth the current over-inflated prices but Mr. Suit goes into Gruhn's or Mando Bros. and 'voila'....they're in demand!
 

Century Bob

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I think people loose sight that instruments like any other object are just that objects. Only the very top tier or one offs that have never been played deserve to be locked away as museum pieces. The rest are tools that are ment to be used. Collectors do ruin things for many of us.
I grew up in and own a automotive business. My father who is also in the business bought cool 50s and 60 cars from customers who didnt want them any more. He didnt buy them as collectable just as cool cars-cheap. Other mechanics also had these cool cars that they worked on and restored-also not woth much. For the past 20 years now the collectors have driven prices way past the means of the people who love them most. Auctions like the Barrett-Jackson have really ruined it. I am lucky to still have a couple those cars. My customers with collectable cars tend to be unable to do anything to keep them going and must pay others for services. Some are capable of being hands on but they can also tent to be uptight as well and tend to brag alot. Its a shame but I think this is just what happens.
 

dreadnut

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I just have one comment: "made to be played!"

I have a real pretty DV52 that was mint+ when I bought it. I could obsess over it, but instead I've played the living daylights out of it, and yes, it has a few scratches and dings now. Oh well.

I agree with ya Walter, what good is the damn thing unless you use it for its intended purpose?

Saw an old boy carrying a nice old F-512 at the local Old Time Fiddler's Jamboree. Not playing it, mind you, just sitting there with it. It was pristeen, and he was very reluctant to let me check it out, but I finally convinced him I wouldn't scratch it :D

The guitar was just dying to be played :cry: Subsequently, I obtained my own F-512, complete with a few battle scars, sounds like a Steinway :D
 

Mr. P ~

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I am happy to see this thread going just the way I expected it to with this crowd of geezers.
 

dklsplace

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I honestly didn't bother to read it....
My one conversation with Gruhn left me with the opinion that he is an extremely knowledgable jerk.

Same here. :? but I would welcome the opportunity to discover otherwise.
 

guildzilla

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Thanks for the good read, P.

I agree with all said here re: "made to be played" by the gifted or by the pedestrian player. If you buy it, you ought to play it. And if being a musician is your livelihood, go ahead and modify all you want - it's your instrument.

That said, I do not deplore the effect of collectors on vintage guitars, availability or pricing. The demand for new guitars is a lot healthier because of the hoarding. The collecting is helping makers of quality instruments, the big guys and the custom luthiers, survive what would otherwise be a guitar glut.

And this applies beyond the highest-end, museum-quality guitars.

Look how many pro and amateur players have way more guitars than they need. People like us. What if we all decided to make due with one guitar? If all the enthusiasts dumped their guitars on the market, it would wreck the market for new guitars. Indeed, something like this may be bound to happen in a decade or two when baby boomer widows and heirs begin dumping our toys.

I started hearing about wealthy Yuppies buying new D-45's in the 1980's and stuffing them in closets. I don't really get that, either. However, I don't mind non-players recognizing the art value and the workmanship and heirloom value of guitars, even if their taste is questionable.

I also don't think it's a great tragedy that musician's can't find "the greatest" vintage instruments because they are locked away. The coolest thing would be for each generation of players to find and create their own icons.
 

Jeff

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Look how many pro and amateur players have way more guitars than they need. People like us. What if we all decided to make due with one guitar? If all the enthusiasts dumped their guitars on the market, it would wreck the market for new guitars. Indeed, something like this may be bound to happen in a decade or two when baby boomer widows and heirs begin dumping our toys.

Zilla,

Your post is a nice perspective. I wouldn't count on an abundance of fine guitars hitting the market when us geezers start cashing in. My widow will know just where to go to discretely dispose of whatever our 6 kids & 9 1/2 grandchildren don't abscond with. She's gonna come straight to this forum & a couple of you crazies will likely bulk up a bit :twisted:

Wonder how many would take out a home equity loan if the new Guy Grot decided to dump his collection here. I'd enjoy watching that !!!

I was out of town for 10 days & I think you guys collectively bought 3 or 4 guitars while I was gone, maybe more, I didn't really count.

There just aren't all that many fine Hoboken & Westerly Guilds to supply the demand for a population that's gonna, what,? double? in the next 100 years. Some percentage of the total vintage instrument inventory bites the dust every year, UPS & the US mail each take their share. It's a little painful to think of how many nice old guitars drowned in Hurricane Katrina

Hardwood forests are disappearing from the planet, can't see how quality tonewoods will not become increasingly rare. By the time the Chinese craftsmen figure it all out, if they ever do, they'll have to make the guitars out of recycled plastic bottles & trash bags, or bambo !!

Rant, ramble on, rant, That's my story & I'm sticking to it. I'm gonna call that guy back on his G 37. :)

Jeff
 

Graham

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Jeff said:
My widow will know just where to go to discretely dispose of whatever our 6 kids & 9 1/2 grandchildren don't abscond with. She's gonna come straight to this forum & a couple of you crazies will likely bulk up a bit :twisted: Jeff

Not wishing you any ill health or anything, but could we maybe meet the Misses, just so that, heaven forbid, when the time comes, we're not all strangers? :twisted:

Is that out of line :shock:

G
 

dreadnut

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Jeff, you could save yourself a lot of grief and just will your collection to me. This way, the Mrs. wouldn't have to pay taxes on the sale :D

Just tryin' to be helpful man, one Guild lover to another. 8)
 

West R Lee

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OK, I'm ready to dump mine on the market....ya'll go first! :lol:

I really do think like most issues, this is very subjective.

What constitutes a collector? Someone with 5 guitars, 10....50? And how many do we really need.....1? I'm not a pro, never will be for that matter, but I love them all and would like to have more. All of mine have their place. D25 beater, D55 becoming a beater, 72 and 73 are my pride and joy, but have played the 72 publicly, there are songs that were meant to be played on a 12. The 52 is an awesome guitar that I love to play. Does this make me a collector? I've never really thought of myself as a serious collector. So where do you draw the line? I'm not a good player, so should I sell them because I'll never be a pro? Guess I'll go sell my golf clubs too! :D

I really do believe that if you want an old Westerly, you can find it. You might have to pay for it, but it's probably out there. I'm a big proponent of supply and demand and that's really what we're talking about....free enterprise. I believe that everyone deserves the right to own any and everything thing they wish to collect, regardless of talent, or lack thereof, as long as they don't steal it. If people want more guitars, then get out there and buy them, even if you can't figure out how to tune the danged thing. :wink: More power to Grot, the only problem I have with him is that I'm jealous. :x

West
 

Jeff

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Sorry guys,

The Redhead says ya'll have to wait till I check out before you come calling.

Meanwhile I got the guy down to $525 on the G 37. Lucky for him he's in Portland. And !!! there's an F 20 project on Ebay that's interesting. Oh yeah, there is a Starfire II in Tacoma's Craiglist for 850 that's not selling & a newly listed JF 30 for 999. The JF 30's a Corona so I don't feel too much pressure.
 

guildzilla

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That's my point. Yeah, if you've got five guitars, especially if they are five very nice guitars, you are a collector. Lots of people have ten. Multiply those small-scale collections by thousands.
 

West R Lee

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Yep, I'm with ya Zilla, just pointing out that there's nothing wrong with collecting. I'll have to admit that when I go to a show to see a bunch of Westerlys, get there and there are 20,000 guitars and about 5 of them Rhode Island acoustics, it is a little disappointing. But then you talk to sellers there and they tell you that they are hard to find, it makes you appreciate what you have and those that are out there. That merely makes what you and I have that much more valuable.

Good thread here.

West
 
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