Pictures, but not mine

I had what might be called a Senior Moment and thought that my StarFire had a curved harp bridge, in spite of the fact that the serial number dated before the curved bridge was introduced. I have since learned that they should be called Teen-aged Moments (Did you do your homework? I forgot. Did you clean your room? I forgot. ...) and that I do indeed have the straight bridge that is to be expected based upon the serial number.

During that moment of confusion I started collecting images of Starfires and their serial numbers. Having finally figured out this photo hosting/sharing stuff, I have posted 12 images here in what I hope is public place.

The highest straight bridge is BA 1358 and the lowest curved bridge is BA 1472. Given what Hans has said about how the production line operated this doesn't have to be significant.

9 of the 12 basses pictured were listed on eBay some time in 2007.

Wow - cool pictures! As frustrating as it can be when the changes happen gradually or haphazardly, like with Rickenbackers, Gibsons, etc., isn't it so much more interesting than the cookie-cutter, mass-produced stuff?

I never even noticed the difference between the bridges either - I thought I was on top of things when I could recognize the difference between the Hagstrom pickups and Guild humbuckers!

fronobulax,

I am the owner of the unknown 1966. (The Guilds of Grot).

The serial number is BA602

It has the staight tail piece.

Kurt

Thanks. The "unknown" referred to serial number but as a 66 I expected the straight bridge and no suck switch. I updated the caption and I am retroactively asking permission or forgiveness for using your image. If I have neither please let me know and I'll delete my copy. Thanks again.

The Guilds of Grot said:

fronobulax,

I am the owner of the unknown 1966. (The Guilds of Grot)...

Kurt

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Cool! I've seen your website before - nice to know you're around here! (I'm new myself)

Fronobulax, feel free to add my picture to the bunch if it helps. Let's call it serial # BA145x.

I added Grot's serial number (thanks), hieronymous' bass (thanks, too) and a picture of mine. BA 145x is now the highest serial with the straight bridge and no suck switch. BA 147x is the lowest with both. Since Hans has pointed out the the production queue was not always first in, first out in terms of serial numbers this may or may be significant.

Pictures, now ordered by serial are still here.

I found a few more and managed to lose all the old captions so this is an update for anyone who cares and Starfire p0rn for MellowGerman who is old enough to enjoy such "adult" entertainment.

http://picasaweb.google.com/Fronobulax/GuildBridges#

groovy. thanks frono!
want pictures of and info on my starfire?

mellowgerman said:

groovy. thanks frono!
want pictures of and info on my starfire?

Click to expand...

Sure. I'll wait for a PM.

Added a '66 belonging to Mellogerman. Between Mellow's and Grot's you can observe the movement of the single PU from the bridge position to the neck position.

Necrothread!!!!

I added a few more and cleaned up captions. Start here.

Just found this-- very cool! Thanks for your research.

So are all the "natural" 'hog basses (color like mine below) refinished?

Yo Fro',

Thought maybe you'd like an updated photo of my Starfire Bass. It's a little different angle and shows the bridge better.

zulu said:

Just found this-- very cool! Thanks for your research.

So are all the "natural" 'hog basses (color like mine below) refinished?

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Whoops

I tend to forget there was a "natural" finish offered and have seen an awful lot of refinished "cherrys". I have a vague recollection of a discussion with Hans and others about just how dark the green really was. Did it get darker over time or was it always that dark? Part of the answer is that Guild used different woods based upon the expected finish. So, I am wrong when I imply (as I did with my captions) that all natural basses are refins. I will correct that. If I had to make an informed guess, as opposed to my typical uninformed guess, I would want to know what the label said since the factory finish is usually on the label. I would suggest that a natural finish on a maple bass was probably a refin but there is really no basis for that suggestion if the bass is mahogany. Thanks for calling me out on that.

zulu said:

So are all the "natural" 'hog basses (color like mine below) refinished?

Click to expand...

Hello zulu,

No, not necessarily. Especially during the early '70s the 'Natural Mahogany' finish was becoming very popular. If that is your guitar in the photo, can you tell me what the 'complete model designation' is as well as the complete 'serial number' that are written on the label?

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
www.guitarsgalore.nl

fronobulax said:

zulu said:

Just found this-- very cool! Thanks for your research.

So are all the "natural" 'hog basses (color like mine below) refinished?

Click to expand...

Whoops

I tend to forget there was a "natural" finish offered and have seen an awful lot of refinished "cherrys". I have a vague recollection of a discussion with Hans and others about just how dark the green really was. Did it get darker over time or was it always that dark? Part of the answer is that Guild used different woods based upon the expected finish. So, I am wrong when I imply (as I did with my captions) that all natural basses are refins. I will correct that. If I had to make an informed guess, as opposed to my typical uninformed guess, I would want to know what the label said since the factory finish is usually on the label. I would suggest that a natural finish on a maple bass was probably a refin but there is really no basis for that suggestion if the bass is mahogany. Thanks for calling me out on that.

Click to expand...

Wasn't intending to "call you out" at all, frono. I'd need some knowledge behind be for that!

seeing the two natural finish basses marked 'probably refin' just made me wonder, my knowledge of these bass finishes is one step above zilch (now, anyway).

hansmoust said:

Hello zulu,

No, not necessarily. Especially during the early '70s the 'Natural Mahogany' finish was becoming very popular. If that is your guitar in the photo, can you tell me what the 'complete model designation' is as well as the complete 'serial number' that are written on the label?

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
www.guitarsgalore.nl

Click to expand...

Thanks for asking, Hans, I wish I could answer your question. The label in my bass (pawn shop buy circa 1994) is 75% peeled off.
across the top of the remaining label, handwritten, 124407122. Near the bottom of the torn label, handwritten, " A-2 "

The remaining label shows Guarantee.... Guild Guitars Inc. no address.

The back of the headstock is stamped 50074

In the past I've matched one of those numbers to 1970.
So I believe it to be a 1970 SF II. I claim innocent on the guitar pickup somebody mashed into the middle.

Of course if you come up with any info Hans, I'd love to know more.

Thanks guys!

zulu said:

Wasn't intending to "call you out" at all, frono. I'd need some knowledge behind be for that!

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Not a problem at all. I sometimes forget what I thought I knew and think I know what I don't. Indeed this project started because I got confused about which bridge was on which of my basses. Since, in the absence of Hans or mgod, I am a major source of Starfire bass information I actually appreciate being questioned so that I can get it right.

Just looking at your picture, I would say your bass left the factory as a Starfire II sometime after the "middle" of 1967. That is because it seems to have the factory tone switch and the curved bridge. I would also say it came out before 1972 because by that time Guild had switched to the humbucker and your bass has the Hagstrom. I say SF II because the controls are in the right place and there is no evidence that the finger and thumb rests were removed.

Whoever added the middle guitar pickup probably added the switch by the master volume as well.

In the 70-71 timeframe there were some interesting two pickup combinations. I've only seen them on JS basses but they include the expected Hagstrom in the neck position and a different Hagstrom in the bridge position. I'd want Hans to express an opinion but your bass could have started out as one of those.

I'd go by the headstock SN and date it to 1970. The possible PU variation would support that date.

zulu said:

The label in my bass (pawn shop buy circa 1994) is 75% peeled off.
across the top of the remaining label, handwritten, 124407122. Near the bottom of the torn label, handwritten, " A-2 "

The remaining label shows Guarantee.... Guild Guitars Inc. no address.

The back of the headstock is stamped 50074

Click to expand...

fronobulax said:

In the 70-71 timeframe there were some interesting two pickup combinations. I've only seen them on JS basses but they include the expected Hagstrom in the neck position and a different Hagstrom in the neck position.

I'd go by the headstock SN and date it to 1970. The possible PU variation would support that date.

Click to expand...

Hello everybody,

That sounds right to me. Nothing to add really; maybe the fact that I've seen that weird 'Hagstrom pickup combo' on Starfire and M-85 basses as well.

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
http://www.guitarsgalore.nl

Just looking at your picture, I would say your bass left the factory as a Starfire II sometime after the "middle" of 1967. That is because it seems to have the factory tone switch and the curved bridge. I would also say it came out before 1972 because by that time Guild had switched to the humbucker and your bass has the Hagstrom. I say SF II because the controls are in the right place and there is no evidence that the finger and thumb rests were removed.

Click to expand...

Thank you, fronobulax. Appreciate your time and knowledge. And to have the info confirmed by Hans is the icing on the cake.

So, I know about the Hagstrom Bisonic in the neck position, what is the bridge pickup called?

Quick story- when I first got the bass, I was in a little studio in N. California where a band called Bloodline was rehearsing. Bloodline was (mostly) made up of the offspring of famous musicians. The bass player was Berry Oakley Jr. His dad was the original bassist for the Allman Brothers. Berry Sr. played a Fender bass (Precision IIRC) modified with the Hagstrom from a Guild, called "The Tractor", now owned and cherished by Berry Jr.
Berry Jr. offered me $600 on the spot for the Hagstrom in my Starfire, as he was always on the lookout for them to make more "Tractors".

Obviously, I didn't sell it to him, but that's when I learned about the desirability of that pickup.


Thanks again Hans and Fronobulax!

Zac

I can't recall any consistent name for the other Hagstrom. I'd probably call it a variant or alternative. It would be interesting to know why Guild adopted it since, in a couple of years, they had switched to the Guild humbucker. Were they running short of the traditional/classic/vintage Hagstroms and went for something else to stretch the supply? Was Hagstrom getting ready to discontinue the one model? Were they chasing after a different tone to better compete with Gibson and Fender? (That would be ironic given the current opinion of the vintage Hagstrom).

I've never heard the alternative PU. It would be interesting to compare it to the standard, although that will be a little hard to do since several people with two Hagstroms in a Starfire have expressed the opinion that the bridge PU doesn't add anything. I have understood that to mean that there is no reason for me to lust after a SF II because I won't be able to hear the difference. In this case, if there is a difference, is it due to the PU, due to the placement or both?

Interesting that you turned down $600. That may be why bigironsfalker isn't getting too much response :wink:

I remember listening to the Allman Brothers when Barry was alive and I had a Guild but I never actually knew about the Tractor and the Guild connection until I encountered Dark Star PUs (many years later) and all of the folks who were interested in using one to recreate their own Tractor.