Thoughts on a Guild B4E?

Hi all,

I've been thinking about learning to play a bass lately. Saturday night I went to a concert where one of the girls was playing a Dean acoustic bass (through a board) and that pushed me over the edge, so I started looking for one.

I've come across a Guild B4E for what seems to be a reasonable price but was wondering - what are the collective thoughts of this wonderful and knowledgeable group (obvious pandering :wink: about that particular instrument? How does it sound, both acoustically and plugged in? Can it hold it's own in a group when not amplified? What's the current value of one?

I've done the search thing here on the forum; also looked up the specs in Beesley's book, (no pictures), but there's nothing that says "yea" or nay" about it.

Any insight would be greatly appreciated. I have no experience with a bass, so my mind is a blank slate about them.

TIA,

Jeff

Hey Jeff, hopefully "Frono" will be by in a while. he has one and loves it!

I have seen prices all over the map. I'd consider anything under $500 w/HSC a bargain. I paid ~$700 for mine (still listed here). I was willing to pay a higher price because it was an in-person transaction with about an hour of playing time before the sale and short scale Guild acoustic basses were is short supply at the time. It was the only one I found after 3 months of pining for one.

The general opinion is that the Guild B-50 is the acoustic bass to beat. Grot and Smithfield Fair have both posted their informed opinions. I think I also participated in a couple of comparison threads, although I'm too lazy to search for them.

That said, I really like my B4E. It feels enough like my Starfire and JS that I don't have to adjust while playing it. It sounds like an acoustic guitar when played. I don't really know how to describe the sound except that the tone reminds me more of a D-25 than the Starfire or JS. When amplified it can produce a wide range of tones. It sounds the same, only louder, or I can play with the pre-amp and get a boomy tone like the JS or the edgier sound of the Starfire. It is the most versatile of my basses, tone wise, although that doesn't make it the one I'd keep if I could only have one.

I think mine has the original strings which look like wound phosphor-bronze. I've heard of folks who put nylon bass strings on a B4E and consequently get a tone with much less treble.

I tend to use it for practice when I don't want to look for a cord and amp. I have used it acoustically in a live setting. It can be heard playing with a D-25 in a living room setting at 5-10 feet out. But the audience can hear me better than I can.

Bottom line. I like it. Un-amplified it will hold its own with one other guitar (maybe two if they are inferior to a D-25 "cannon") in a small or intimate room. More instruments or a bigger room and it needs an amp. If I know going in I'll have an amp sometimes I take the Starfire but sometimes I take the B4E because it is not as "threatening" as an electric bass.

Thanks Frono,

I know absolutely nothing about basses, but I've had the urge for a while to learn. I've e-mailed the owner of the B4E for pictures and some detailed information, I'm waiting for a reply. He wants $500.00 +shipping for it, so his price seems fair.

I've seen B-50s around, but they're more than I want to spend for a starter bass. I was going to go for a cheapie, Dean, Ibanez, something of that kind, but the B4E popped up, and being a Guild-a-holic, well you know how it is.

I'm going to wait and see if I hear back from the owner. Then I've got to learn to play it. I suppose that means another quest - books, DVDs, and an amp?

Isn't this music stuff fun?

Thanks again,

Jeff

Jeff_L said:

Isn't this music stuff fun?

Click to expand...

I'm no expert on assessing condition but the nice thing about the B4E is that it is a guitar so anything that might concern you about an acoustic guitar (cracks, bridge height, neck angle and so on) are things you can check. If you post pre-sale pictures I'm sure people more knowledgeable than me will chime in with condition related concerns.

Price sounds reasonable, and approaches bargainland, IMO, if it comes with a HSC. BTW, I have a TKL case that fits but there is a good 6 inches between the top of the headstock and the headstock end of the case. Looks pretty funny but the annoyance comes about because the TKL case is slightly too big to sit flat in a small car trunk. If the case were better sized that would not be a problem for me.

Do you know year and finish? There are a lot of "naturals" out there. Mine's black and I have seen pictures of one in "Vintage White", although the picture of that one is on longer online.

I consider a B-50 an upgrade but quite frankly would only recommend it to someone with an ego or someone who was actually gigging with one and wanted its projection so I will endorse your choice of a B4E :wink:

Not sure what instruction materials to recommend. I played tuba before I picked up bass so I already could read music well and had ear training and intuition for what a bass part might sound like. I did a lot by ear - listen to a recording, try and figure out what was being played and then play. The down side of that is I know a whole lot of riffs for the verse and chorus of a song but have no clue what to do for the bridge. I also lack the stamina to play the riff flawlessly for five minutes while someone else solos. I might suggest you visit a local music store, see what they have for beginning bassists and pick a book that seems to match your knowledge level and learning style. Alternatively, you could pick one that tells you things you don't already know in the first few pages.

As for amp, I'd wait for a bit. You won't need it to practice and the absence of an amp might be an advantage in a small group. If you just want to be louder then guitar amps work fine. I use a Princeton Reverb when I need one for the B4E and now that I think of it, I'm not sure I've ever run the B4E through the "real" bass amp.

Good luck.

fronobulax said:

Jeff_L said:

Isn't this music stuff fun?

Click to expand...

I'm no expert on assessing condition but the nice thing about the B4E is that it is a guitar so anything that might concern you about an acoustic guitar (cracks, bridge height, neck angle and so on) are things you can check. If you post pre-sale pictures I'm sure people more knowledgeable than me will chime in with condition related concerns.

Price sounds reasonable, and approaches bargainland, IMO, if it comes with a HSC. BTW, I have a TKL case that fits but there is a good 6 inches between the top of the headstock and the headstock end of the case. Looks pretty funny but the annoyance comes about because the TKL case is slightly too big to sit flat in a small car trunk. If the case were better sized that would not be a problem for me.

Do you know year and finish? There are a lot of "naturals" out there. Mine's black and I have seen pictures of one in "Vintage White", although the picture of that one is on longer online.

Click to expand...

Here's the posting for the B4E:

GUILD ACOUSTIC BASS GUITAR: B4E N, purchased locally more than 10 years ago and never played much at all. (It’s my wife’s, and she got an upright not long after, which she prefers when she plays bass. She’s a fiddler and says frets confuse her.) Shallow mini-jumbo body (16" wide at lower bout, about 3" deep, appr. 31" scale, with soft cutaway on treble side and oval soundhole. Fishman electronics, with the usual “control panel” on the bass side upper bout, and endpin jack.

The top is solid spruce - you can see the continuous endgrain lines in the soundhole edges. I assume the back and sides are laminated mahogany. The back is arched and there are no braces, which is normal for Guilds with laminate backs.

Obviously, this is not terribly loud as basses go, when played acoustically. But it works fine plugged in, with a good natural sound. Overall condition excellent; recent action adjustment and restringing. Includes original Guild logo archtop hard case, which mostly been indoors and is in excellent condition as well.

Asking $500 (+ shipping, if necessary), with the hard case.

fronobulax said:

I consider a B-50 an upgrade but quite frankly would only recommend it to someone with an ego or someone who was actually gigging with one and wanted its projection so I will endorse your choice of a B4E :wink:

Not sure what instruction materials to recommend. I played tuba before I picked up bass so I already could read music well and had ear training and intuition for what a bass part might sound like. I did a lot by ear - listen to a recording, try and figure out what was being played and then play. The down side of that is I know a whole lot of riffs for the verse and chorus of a song but have no clue what to do for the bridge. I also lack the stamina to play the riff flawlessly for five minutes while someone else solos. I might suggest you visit a local music store, see what they have for beginning bassists and pick a book that seems to match your knowledge level and learning style. Alternatively, you could pick one that tells you things you don't already know in the first few pages.

Click to expand...

I can read music, v-e-r-y s-l-o-w-l-y, and tab even slower. What's more, when I'm listening to music it seems like I can almost anticipate what the bass line will be. Maybe when I actually get a bass in my hands I'll find out I'm not as good as I think, but only time will tell. :roll:

fronobulax said:

As for amp, I'd wait for a bit. You won't need it to practice and the absence of an amp might be an advantage in a small group. If you just want to be louder then guitar amps work fine. I use a Princeton Reverb when I need one for the B4E and now that I think of it, I'm not sure I've ever run the B4E through the "real" bass amp.

Good luck.

Click to expand...

I've always been told that playing a bass thru a guitar amp will shred the speaker(s), that bass amp speakers were beefed up. True, or another old wives tale?

Jeff

Jeff L said:

I've always been told that playing a bass thru a guitar amp will shred the speaker(s), that bass amp speakers were beefed up. True, or another old wives tale?

Click to expand...

My band teacher always told me that...dunno if it was true or not, but man did that guitar amp start sounding really funny after a while

Jeff_L said:

I've always been told that playing a bass thru a guitar amp will shred the speaker(s), that bass amp speakers were beefed up. True, or another old wives tale?

Jeff

Click to expand...

Well, I will change my opinion to match CapnJuan's, if he expresses one, but on the whole I obviously disagree. As a general rule you can damage any audio equipment by feeding it a signal it was not designed for. Signals have frequency and power for starters, so I'm sure if you feed a lot of low frequency bass notes at high power to an amp that is not expecting it something will eventually give and that would probably be the speaker. However, there seems to be little opportunity for damage at the lower end of the power range. For example, the previously noted Princeton Reverb is overpowered for what it is asked to do. I don't think the master volume has ever been above 4 with a guitar and tends to be 1 or 2 with the bass. The amp does not go to eleven but even so, it is being operated in the low end of the range.

So the statement about damage should really be couched in more general terms about overdriving the amp regardless of whether it is a bass or a guitar. I will note that the tone controls on the guitar amp are designed for guitar frequencies and so won't do much for bass.

If someone owned a guitar amp I would advise that they use it for bass until they get to the point where they need more volume than the amp is capable of or they need a better/different sound. By that time, most people are gigging on bass so the cost savings are less important.

Clear as mud?

fronobulax said:

Signals have frequency and power for starters, so I'm sure if you feed a lot of low frequency bass notes at high power to an amp that is not expecting it something will eventually give and that would probably be the speaker. However, there seems to be little opportunity for damage at the lower end of the power range. For example, the previously noted Princeton Reverb is overpowered for what it is asked to do. I don't think the master volume has ever been above 4 with a guitar and tends to be 1 or 2 with the bass. The amp does not go to eleven but even so, it is being operated in the low end of the range.
So the statement about damage should really be couched in more general terms about overdriving the amp regardless of whether it is a bass or a guitar. I will note that the tone controls on the guitar amp are designed for guitar frequencies and so won't do much for bass.

Click to expand...

That's exactly what I would have thought since the same applies to stereo equipment, but I'm not an electric guy so I didn't pipe up. For a total 180 degree view, how about the fact that I used to jam with a buddy and I actually preferred using his bass amp with a Markley soundhole pick in my D25? :lol: Real easy to get low-volume feedback overdrive ... :lol:
By the way that was a great review Frono. Got my appetite for an a/e bass whetted again, and I didn't know there was a shortscale. I always liked the look of the B30, any observations there?

fronobulax said:

Jeff_L said:

I've always been told that playing a bass thru a guitar amp will shred the speaker(s), that bass amp speakers were beefed up. True, or another old wives tale?

Jeff

Click to expand...

Well, I will change my opinion to match CapnJuan's, if he expresses one, but on the whole I obviously disagree. As a general rule you can damage any audio equipment by feeding it a signal it was not designed for. Signals have frequency and power for starters, so I'm sure if you feed a lot of low frequency bass notes at high power to an amp that is not expecting it something will eventually give and that would probably be the speaker. However, there seems to be little opportunity for damage at the lower end of the power range. For example, the previously noted Princeton Reverb is overpowered for what it is asked to do. I don't think the master volume has ever been above 4 with a guitar and tends to be 1 or 2 with the bass. The amp does not go to eleven but even so, it is being operated in the low end of the range.

So the statement about damage should really be couched in more general terms about overdriving the amp regardless of whether it is a bass or a guitar. I will note that the tone controls on the guitar amp are designed for guitar frequencies and so won't do much for bass.

If someone owned a guitar amp I would advise that they use it for bass until they get to the point where they need more volume than the amp is capable of or they need a better/different sound. By that time, most people are gigging on bass so the cost savings are less important.

Clear as mud?

Click to expand...

Actually, quite clear and makes a lot of sense. You can destroy any speaker by over-driving it, even a little transistor radio.

I've got a Fender Princeton Chorus DSP - solid state stereo amp, 2 25-watt channels with 2 10-inch speakers. Should be enough for a bass in any situation I'll ever be in. If I should wind up playing out somewhere I'd worry about a bass amp then.

I'm still waiting to hear from the guy who hast the B4E for sale.

Jeff

adorshki said:

Got my appetite for an a/e bass whetted again, and I didn't know there was a shortscale. I always liked the look of the B30, any observations there?

Click to expand...

As far as I know "all" of the Guild acoustic and acoustic/electric basses are short scale, (for suitable definitions of "all"). No one really talks about the B-30. I think everyone agrees that the B-50 outclasses the B-30 and B-4 but a B-30 is not an upgrade from a B-4 and since the latter are still fairly common there is more interest in it. The comparison comments refer to the instrument in an acoustic setting.

OK - here's my two cents - but bear in mind throughout that I am somewhat of a "purist" when it comes to acoustic basses and acoustic guitars. I very rarely EVER like an acoustic-electric - they are usually inferior acoustics leaning heavily on inferior electronics to inadequately cover two areas of play. I've been playing a B-50 since they were first made and currently have a 1979 fretted sunburst (tobacco) with a Shure SM-11 microphone internally. BUT, my brother Bob (our real bassist) plays fretless B-50's (currently has 1978 and 1976 NT models - both with Shure SM-11 mics. as well as K&K Pure bass pick-ups and preamp). All that said...

I never liked the B4 and B4E. The B4 was a useless instrument - a hybrid neither fish nor foul - a trick to make people buy a useless acoustic bass that had no projection, no sustain, no tone, and no reason to live. I always thought B4's should be man enough to take their own lives. The B4E, to me, were one of those anomales of the acoustic-electric kind (light on the acoustic - light on the electric - sort of like a brushless carwash - just spitting lukewarm water. HOWEVER - as I've grown and seen more of the world's musical playingfields, I've come to appreciate the B4E. It's a bass for bassists who prefer to play acoustically, but can't commit to an upright bass, but sometimes find themselves overwhelmed by amplified instruments. In short - they present a pleasant ability to cover a number of basses by allowing the player to play acoustically alone or with a friend, or with a slight boost from the PA system or a small bass amp to compete with a larger ensemble.

All Guild acoustic basses are short scaled and don't have all the low end sustain one would hope for, but the B50 is the best and as a line - they are far, far superior to anything else on the commercially-produced production line horizon - with the possible exception of the old Ernie Ball Earthwood acoustic basses, but let's see you find one of those. I don't know what sort of pick-up was in the B4E, but something clicks upstairs and says I think it was a Fishman. It depends solely on your taste whether you like this pick-up or not. I've never cared for Fishman, until I bought an old Guild F15 and I think the Fishman gives an honest representation of the instrument. (I also never liked cut-aways because they steal part of the sound, but I love this F-15 cutaway. Inexplicable, yes? Yes!)

As far as the price, I agree with Frono - that borders on a great deal. In short, if you want to learn the bass - there's the possibly perfect entry. I think $500 is a great price - hopefully with the case....O, wait, wait, wait, - I just re-read the listing info and it has the case. Yes, by all means, by this puppy. That's a great deal and you get a good instrument athat will serve you in a number of situations with a number of sound/tone variables. Buy it now and start learning. You will never regret it, I believe. There are never enough bassists around to play with acoustic groups, so you'll have countless opportunities to sit in with bluegrass, folk, jam, pop, Celtic and solo singer/songwriters. You have my vote and I only hope I'm not too late. If he's already sold it - try Jay Pilzer at www.guildguy.com as he's usually got them coming and going. Hope this helps - all the best to you. Peace and 80/20 bronze. dbs

SmithfieldFair said:

OK - here's my two cents

Click to expand...

I thought thems wuz gonna be fightin' words but it looks like we are in substantial agreement.

A couple of points I will reinforce.

The B4E's PU is a Fishman. To my ears the bass sounds the same amplified as acoustic. That is not necessarily a good thing because the amplified result is too bright and tinny for me, but then that's why there are tone controls on the PU. I do think "faithful" and "accurate" do apply.

I don't play it but I often tune my wife's D-25 for her and I am always amazed at how small the B4E feels in comparison. The laws of physics and acoustics certainly suggest that a bass with more sound is possible.

The B4E does fill a niche. In my case the niche is anywhere that I do not want to haul an amp. If I were gigging I'd have to haul the amp regardless and so would have the Starfire unless the rest of the ensemble was "afraid" of electrics.

The B4E does have the advantage in availability and price. If you had $1000 and a month to find an acoustic/electric bass you would have had the chance to consider 3 or 4 B4Es and had change from your $1000. You might not even find a B-50 for sale in that time and certainly not under a grand.

O, agreed on all points, Frono. I stated my opinion simply for those who might think I was pulling someone's leg. My B-50 is a presence to be amazed at in acoustic settings, and it will hold it's own with several instruments. However, one of the obvious shortcomings of acoustic basses - and the B-50 falls in here, too - is that amplifying them accurately and faithfully has always been a struggle. I used the Shure SM11 mics. for years, but I have been so VERY impressed with the K&K system - easpecially the pre-amp. A lot of times, playing a lot of festivals as we have, it's not enough to simply have a good system when you're dealing with a sound man that has never done acoustic sound or doesn't understand what you're trying to do - AND he's only got 15 minutes to get you and your band up and running and starting. That, and the progress of pick-ups, have seriously changed my mind about amplifying acoustic instruments.

Travelling around, I always take opportunities to listen to what others are doing and to try different instruments. I don't like most of the production line acoustic basses I see, but occasionally there's a custom instrument that's interesting (until I'm told the cost and then I choke). But mostly, the basses are tinny and are neither fish nor foul soundwise. The B4E's I've seen always surprise me. O, I'm not completely sold on the sound and we still have the B-50, but they are surprisingly better than the rest. You get a company like Martin that decised to make an acoustic bass and they use a small guitar body with no tone and no projection and you have to wonder 'why?'. They should know better. Can't they tell the bass is a pathetic atempt? I don't know, I don't have any answers. I only know I wouldn't use one and certinaly wouldn't pay the price for one.

All of this has made me rethink my stand on a number of things - or maybe I'm just getting old and settling. But one thing I can say is that with the B4E, you get a quality Westerly Guild instrument and though there's some variability in their production lines - there is a great deal that sets them above and apart from other makers. That goes for guitars as well. Of course, I'm preaching to the choir here. I wonder if Jeff bought that B4E? hmm.... Peace! dbs

SmithfieldFair said:

OK - here's my two cents - but bear in mind throughout that I am somewhat of a "purist" when it comes to acoustic basses and acoustic guitars. I very rarely EVER like an acoustic-electric - they are usually inferior acoustics leaning heavily on inferior electronics to inadequately cover two areas of play.

Click to expand...

Whew! I miss reading the forum for a couple of days and this shows up. a very strong opinion against acoustic bass guitars. Maybe I'd better re-think the whole idea.

Then I read:

SmithfieldFair said:

As far as the price, I agree with Frono - that borders on a great deal. In short, if you want to learn the bass - there's the possibly perfect entry. I think $500 is a great price - hopefully with the case....O, wait, wait, wait, - I just re-read the listing info and it has the case. Yes, by all means, by this puppy. That's a great deal and you get a good instrument athat will serve you in a number of situations with a number of sound/tone variables. Buy it now and start learning. You will never regret it, I believe. There are never enough bassists around to play with acoustic groups, so you'll have countless opportunities to sit in with bluegrass, folk, jam, pop, Celtic and solo singer/songwriters. You have my vote and I only hope I'm not too late. If he's already sold it - try Jay Pilzer at http://www.guildguy.com as he's usually got them coming and going. Hope this helps - all the best to you. Peace and 80/20 bronze. dbs

Click to expand...

So I read Frono's post where he has the same reaction I do, then I read DBS' second post, and I'm pleased with my decision.

SmithfieldFair said:

I wonder if Jeff bought that B4E? hmm....

Click to expand...

Yep, after two weeks of haggling back and forth via e-mail, it was shipped yesterday. I should have it by next Tuesday or Wednesday at the latest.

The seller told me he found the original bill of sale dated April of 1996. He paid $649.00 for the bass and another $112.00 for the case; that was 50% off of list price for both. He sold it to me for substantially less than that.

I'm going to be on pins and needles waiting for it to get here. He's shipping it via U.S.P.S. priority mail; he claims he's had the best luck with them.

Now I have to learn to play the thing. Does anybody have and suggestions for good books, preferrably with DVD, for a 67-year-old beginning bass player?

Thanks to all for the information, tips, and "pushes".

Jeff

Welcome to the club!

Glad you found the advice useful enough to make a decision. As Grot says, welcome to the club.

Not sure what instruction material to suggest but I will check around.

Instructional material: Much as we like to malign the Guitar Centers, I must in fairness point out they had a very decent VARIETY of materials for sale the last time I visited, including bass guitar tutorials for various skill levels.. I suspect most fairly large music retailers will also present a selection, it's a signficant source of "add-on sales" for them.

Jeff -- Back in the late 70's, I had the extraordinary experience of working with Carol Kaye - she has one of the seminal bass methods (http://www.carolkaye.com/catalog/produc ... ucts_id=32). Shreveport, Louisiana's own Joe Osborn followed Carol into the Wrecking Crew, but I don't see that Joe has a method book. Carol's book has been the "bible" for bassists for nearly 40 years. There are also some free tutorials on You Tube. Maybe Grot still has some of his acoustic playing posted. It's also helpful to get a fake or chord book and play along with friends and the record - just following the tonic in the chords. Congratulations and I hope you really enjoy the bass and thr process of learning and finding your voice on the bass. All the very best....dbs

Fronobulax said:

kevin the bass man said:

[quote="Jeff L":3920ah1a]I've always been told that playing a bass thru a guitar amp will shred the speaker(s), that bass amp speakers were beefed up. True, or another old wives tale?

Click to expand...

My band teacher always told me that...dunno if it was true or not, but man did that guitar amp start sounding really funny after a while

Click to expand...

However, there seems to be little opportunity for damage at the lower end of the power range. [/quote:3920ah1a] Hi Frono ... that's exactly right. Where the trouble comes is trying to get 50 watts of bass volume out of a dimed 25 watt guitar combo amp ... that will ruin at least the speaker if not the rest of the amp. Bass notes take more electronic energy to amplify and the speaker cone's total in-out excursion is maximized with bass. At maximum power for nothing but bass, something has to give; either the power supply or the speaker.