Vintage Guitar Show in Germany cancelled due to CITES issues

SFIV1967 · Oct 25, 2012

It's getting more crazy now... One of the larger European Vintage Guitar shows planned for Nov 3rd/4th in Oldenburg/Germany got cancelled due to CITES issues!

http://www.oldenburger-music-station.de/showeng.htm

"We feel deeply sorry to have to cancel this years' show that was planned for November 3rd and 4th. In the past few weeks we had a big stir and intense discussions here in Germany regarding the consequences of CITES (Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora ), the European Union's laws and regulations as well as their national implementations for vintage instruments with protected woods, and especially Brazilian Rosewood (Dalbergia Negra). After extensive communication with state authorities of Niedersachsen and other public instances we have gained the impression that for private parties as well as for dealers even the sole presentation of vintage instruments with such protected woods at an event with a moderate entrance fee, their use in public performances, their trade or sale without an explicit trade license (Vermarktungsbescheinigung) could be against reigning laws. We will make further efforts for a clarification but need to refer regarding all German national aspects to the Bundesamt für Naturschutz and its website http://www.bfn.de as well as the state authorities in charge until further notice. We hope to welcome you again next year. Please come back in time for details on the Oldenburg Vintage Show 2013."

I wonder what this means for future vintage guitar shows in the US ?

Ralf

chazmo · Oct 25, 2012

Wow, Ralf. That is disappointing and very scary.

We fed the Guild / Fender management some questions about wood and I was wondering if it was going to turn into a conversation about CITES, but it didn't. I know that Guild is having some intermittent trouble selling guitars in Europe due to this, but I think these guys feel that a proper chain of custody is the answer to their concerns. I'm not so sure.

And now you're talking about vintage guitars. My god, are these treaty obligations going to make it impossible to trade/sell these guitars in the future? I think this really sucks.

fronobulax · Oct 25, 2012

For reasons that I do not understand, I read the headline as Vintage Car show, which gave me an image of fine old cars from the 1920's and 30's where wood finishes in the interior were a sign of luxury.

To the subject at hand, I suspect something similar would be less likely to happen in the US because most guitar shows attract their dealers and customers from the locals. While I don't discount international participation I believe the economic impact of it is small enough that a US show would not be cancelled if there were no international buyers and dealers. Maybe not, though. I understand that Japanese collectors account for many of the high end sales.

Without reopening the political discussion on the CITES treaty it does seem to me that the various signatory governments need to develop a means whereby an individual citizen can cross international borders with material that is legal under CITES. Border guards should not be expected or allowed to determine whether wood is of a particular species or whether an object was created using legal materials, perhaps even created decades before CITES became law.

Bing k · Oct 25, 2012

What about the furniture in your house? What about the furniture and other items in estate sales? Will we have to have CITES certification to have a garage sale? I believe that down the road we will find out that this has more to do with activism than it does preserving wood or forest or trees.

ladytexan · Oct 25, 2012

Thanks, Ralf, for posting the information about the cancelled vintage guitar show. It is another indication that the 'wood issue' isn't going to calm down to a dull roar anytime soon.

I know in talking with the folks at Guild during LMG III, they have a quantity of Brazilian rosewood that will never be made into guitars because they don't have the paperwork necessary to meet CITES (the wood was purchased long, long ago before the endangered wood laws were passed).

Ah, c'est la guerre! :roll:

Jeff · Oct 25, 2012

fronobulax said:
.......
To the subject at hand, I suspect something similar would be less likely to happen in the US because most guitar shows attract their dealers and customers from the locals. While I don't discount international participation I believe the economic impact of it is small enough that a US show would not be cancelled if there were no international buyers and dealers. Maybe not, though. I understand that Japanese collectors account for many of the high end sales.

....

I suspect the general public is out of the loop on what all goes on at guitar shows. A good part of the action happens Friday before the show opens to the public Sat morning.

Hans travels from the Netherlands every year with a list of guitars his customers are seeking.

I've purchased a couple guitars from Guitar Maniacs in downtown Tacoma Wa & had the good fortune to sit next to Rick the owner on the flight home from Dallas. The Japanese had two major booths at the Arlingtion Show, I learned from Rick they spent some large cash, bought every Fender Jaguar in the place. Another tidbit was perhaps the next hot vintage market is rich Russians.

Restrictive, overregulation of legitimate international commerce makes no sense in the 21st century.

Bing k · Oct 25, 2012

It amounts to an in-place confiscation of assets. There are hundreds of units of wood in guitar factories all over the world that was purchased 30-50 years ago that will never be made into guitars because of the paperwork trail. There should be an adjustment in the law to allow for pre-CITES wood to be used for guitar construction. With the environmental movement of today I don't see it happening.

Zelja · Oct 25, 2012

I can't see the sense of making it so difficult to transport guitars across borders which were made before the CITES agreements. How does it protect the existing environment in any way? Is it just a revenue earner?

adorshki · Oct 25, 2012

Zelja said:
I can't see the sense of making it so difficult to transport guitars across borders which were made before the CITES agreements. How does it protect the existing environment in any way? Is it just a revenue earner?

The problem is proving when they were made, and establishing a commonly accepted standard of proof. Something that border guards would accept the same way they treat passports, to address Frono's point about eliminating the need for discretionary judgements on their part. A further wrinkle is proving that the certificate you have is actually for the guitar in hand..or vice versa... :?
As a counterpoint, regarding how serious the problem (commerce in illegally harvested species) is, I recently saw a documentary episode of a series called "Earth from the Air". It illustrated the degree to which government corruption enables illegal harvesting in one African nation, to the extent of allowing illegally harvested wood to be stamped as certified legal harvest. Most of the wood winds up as european furniture/housing. A corrollary to the issue is the ever growing number of animal species which are endangered as a result of shrinking habitat. Orangutans are poised to become the first great ape to become extinct:
From: http://pin.primate.wisc.edu/factsheets/ ... gutan/cons :
"The most serious threat to orangutan viability is the unsustainable practice of timber extraction in Indonesia and Malaysia."
"Compounding the problem of commercial timber harvest is illegal logging. Rather than following a mandated 30- to 40-year rest period before felling more trees in an area, logging generally continues until all of the commercially valuable timber has been extracted (van Schaik et al. 2001). The natural processes of regeneration do not occur..."
"Weak compliance with regulations, weak law enforcement, and weak legal environment all contribute to illegal timber harvesting and agriculture (Robertson & van Schaik 2001)."
And, from here: http://www.orangutans.com.au/Orangutans ... cline.aspx :
"New orangutan population estimates revealed in the July issue of Oryx reflect those improvements in assessment methodology – including standardized data collection, island-wide surveys, and better sharing of data among stakeholders – rather than dramatic changes in the number of surviving orangutans.
The experts’ revised estimates put the number of Sumatran orangutans (P. abelii) around 6,600 in 2004. This is lower than previous estimates of 7,501 as a result of new findings that indicate that a large area in Aceh that was previously thought to contain orangutans actually does not. Since forest loss in Aceh has been relatively low from 2004 to 2008, the 2004 estimate is probably not much higher than the actual number in 2008. The 2004 estimate of about 54,000 Bornean orangutans (P. pygmaeus) is probably also higher than the actual number today as there has been a 10 percent orangutan habitat loss in the Indonesian part of Borneo during that period."
“It is clear that the Sumatran orangutan is in rapid decline and unless extraordinary efforts are made soon, it could become the first great ape species to go extinct,” Wich et al. wrote. “Although these revised estimates for Borneo are encouraging, forest loss and associated loss of orangutans are occurring at an alarming rate, and suggest that recent reductions of Bornean orangutan populations have been far more severe than previously supposed.”

So it's not "just about the wood".
So I can understand why the issue is taken so seriously and sadly the trade in vintage guitars is less than a drop in the bucket in comparison. It wouldn't surprise me if it remains in the category of "economic collateral damage".

Chazmo said:
We fed the Guild / Fender management some questions about wood and I was wondering if it was going to turn into a conversation about CITES, but it didn't. I know that Guild is having some intermittent trouble selling guitars in Europe due to this, but I think these guys feel that a proper chain of custody is the answer to their concerns. I'm not so sure.

There's already an entity in place, the FSC (Forestry Stewardship Council), that exists pretty much for that exact purpose, to maintain CoC records. However the periodic licensing fee to be allowed to rely on their certification and display it on your goods is prety darn hefty.
In addition you must be "certified" yourself.
I think it would be a great system for customs purposes, but there is still the issue of preventing and or recognizing counterfeit certifications.

West R Lee · Oct 30, 2012

:lol: I think I'll sit this one out and just read.

West

Bing k · Oct 30, 2012

West R Lee said:
:lol: I think I'll sit this one out and just read.

West

I hear ya West. This issue is a real can of worms.

West R Lee · Oct 30, 2012

adorshki said:
Zelja said:

I can't see the sense of making it so difficult to transport guitars across borders which were made before the CITES agreements. How does it protect the existing environment in any way? Is it just a revenue earner?

Click to expand...

The problem is proving when they were made, and establishing a commonly accepted standard of proof. Something that border guards would accept the same way they treat passports, to address Frono's point about eliminating the need for discretionary judgements on their part. A further wrinkle is proving that the certificate you have is actually for the guitar in hand..or vice versa... :?
As a counterpoint, regarding how serious the problem (commerce in illegally harvested species) is, I recently saw a documentary episode of a series called "Earth from the Air". It illustrated the degree to which government corruption enables illegal harvesting in one African nation, to the extent of allowing illegally harvested wood to be stamped as certified legal harvest. Most of the wood winds up as european furniture/housing. A corrollary to the issue is the ever growing number of animal species which are endangered as a result of shrinking habitat. Orangutans are poised to become the first great ape to become extinct:
From: http://pin.primate.wisc.edu/factsheets/ ... gutan/cons :
"The most serious threat to orangutan viability is the unsustainable practice of timber extraction in Indonesia and Malaysia."
"Compounding the problem of commercial timber harvest is illegal logging. Rather than following a mandated 30- to 40-year rest period before felling more trees in an area, logging generally continues until all of the commercially valuable timber has been extracted (van Schaik et al. 2001). The natural processes of regeneration do not occur..."
"Weak compliance with regulations, weak law enforcement, and weak legal environment all contribute to illegal timber harvesting and agriculture (Robertson & van Schaik 2001)."
And, from here: http://www.orangutans.com.au/Orangutans ... cline.aspx :
"New orangutan population estimates revealed in the July issue of Oryx reflect those improvements in assessment methodology – including standardized data collection, island-wide surveys, and better sharing of data among stakeholders – rather than dramatic changes in the number of surviving orangutans.
The experts’ revised estimates put the number of Sumatran orangutans (P. abelii) around 6,600 in 2004. This is lower than previous estimates of 7,501 as a result of new findings that indicate that a large area in Aceh that was previously thought to contain orangutans actually does not. Since forest loss in Aceh has been relatively low from 2004 to 2008, the 2004 estimate is probably not much higher than the actual number in 2008. The 2004 estimate of about 54,000 Bornean orangutans (P. pygmaeus) is probably also higher than the actual number today as there has been a 10 percent orangutan habitat loss in the Indonesian part of Borneo during that period."
“It is clear that the Sumatran orangutan is in rapid decline and unless extraordinary efforts are made soon, it could become the first great ape species to go extinct,” Wich et al. wrote. “Although these revised estimates for Borneo are encouraging, forest loss and associated loss of orangutans are occurring at an alarming rate, and suggest that recent reductions of Bornean orangutan populations have been far more severe than previously supposed.”

So it's not "just about the wood".
So I can understand why the issue is taken so seriously and sadly the trade in vintage guitars is less than a drop in the bucket in comparison. It wouldn't surprise me if it remains in the category of "economic collateral damage".

Chazmo said:

We fed the Guild / Fender management some questions about wood and I was wondering if it was going to turn into a conversation about CITES, but it didn't. I know that Guild is having some intermittent trouble selling guitars in Europe due to this, but I think these guys feel that a proper chain of custody is the answer to their concerns. I'm not so sure.

Click to expand...

There's already an entity in place, the FSC (Forestry Stewardship Council), that exists pretty much for that exact purpose, to maintain CoC records. However the periodic licensing fee to be allowed to rely on their certification and display it on your goods is prety darn hefty.
In addition you must be "certified" yourself.
I think it would be a great system for customs purposes, but there is still the issue of preventing and or recognizing counterfeit certifications.

OK, I can't bite my tongue on this one Al. The statement about Malaysia is very misleading. Having lived there, and as I've stated in previous threads, the deforestation in Malaysia, as in Indonesia, has little to do with guitars or furniture, it has everything to do with clearing land to grow biofuel crops. We drove through miles upon miles of palm oil plantations while I was there, all cleared from jungle relatively recently at the time, and it was common knowledge that the air was thick with choking smoke from the fires which cleared land in Indonesia about 150 miles to the south, with the prevailing winds blowing south to north, right up the Malay peninsula.....and that was 12 years ago.

I certainly can't attest to deforestation in Africa, but I saw and breathed this with my own eyes and lungs.

West

West R Lee · Oct 30, 2012

adorshki said:
Zelja said:

I can't see the sense of making it so difficult to transport guitars across borders which were made before the CITES agreements. How does it protect the existing environment in any way? Is it just a revenue earner?

Click to expand...

The problem is proving when they were made, and establishing a commonly accepted standard of proof. Something that border guards would accept the same way they treat passports, to address Frono's point about eliminating the need for discretionary judgements on their part. A further wrinkle is proving that the certificate you have is actually for the guitar in hand..or vice versa... :?
As a counterpoint, regarding how serious the problem (commerce in illegally harvested species) is, I recently saw a documentary episode of a series called "Earth from the Air". It illustrated the degree to which government corruption enables illegal harvesting in one African nation, to the extent of allowing illegally harvested wood to be stamped as certified legal harvest. Most of the wood winds up as european furniture/housing. A corrollary to the issue is the ever growing number of animal species which are endangered as a result of shrinking habitat. Orangutans are poised to become the first great ape to become extinct:
From: http://pin.primate.wisc.edu/factsheets/ ... gutan/cons :
"The most serious threat to orangutan viability is the unsustainable practice of timber extraction in Indonesia and Malaysia."
"Compounding the problem of commercial timber harvest is illegal logging. Rather than following a mandated 30- to 40-year rest period before felling more trees in an area, logging generally continues until all of the commercially valuable timber has been extracted (van Schaik et al. 2001). The natural processes of regeneration do not occur..."
"Weak compliance with regulations, weak law enforcement, and weak legal environment all contribute to illegal timber harvesting and agriculture (Robertson & van Schaik 2001)."
And, from here: http://www.orangutans.com.au/Orangutans ... cline.aspx :
"New orangutan population estimates revealed in the July issue of Oryx reflect those improvements in assessment methodology – including standardized data collection, island-wide surveys, and better sharing of data among stakeholders – rather than dramatic changes in the number of surviving orangutans.
The experts’ revised estimates put the number of Sumatran orangutans (P. abelii) around 6,600 in 2004. This is lower than previous estimates of 7,501 as a result of new findings that indicate that a large area in Aceh that was previously thought to contain orangutans actually does not. Since forest loss in Aceh has been relatively low from 2004 to 2008, the 2004 estimate is probably not much higher than the actual number in 2008. The 2004 estimate of about 54,000 Bornean orangutans (P. pygmaeus) is probably also higher than the actual number today as there has been a 10 percent orangutan habitat loss in the Indonesian part of Borneo during that period."
“It is clear that the Sumatran orangutan is in rapid decline and unless extraordinary efforts are made soon, it could become the first great ape species to go extinct,” Wich et al. wrote. “Although these revised estimates for Borneo are encouraging, forest loss and associated loss of orangutans are occurring at an alarming rate, and suggest that recent reductions of Bornean orangutan populations have been far more severe than previously supposed.”

So it's not "just about the wood".
So I can understand why the issue is taken so seriously and sadly the trade in vintage guitars is less than a drop in the bucket in comparison. It wouldn't surprise me if it remains in the category of "economic collateral damage".

Chazmo said:

We fed the Guild / Fender management some questions about wood and I was wondering if it was going to turn into a conversation about CITES, but it didn't. I know that Guild is having some intermittent trouble selling guitars in Europe due to this, but I think these guys feel that a proper chain of custody is the answer to their concerns. I'm not so sure.

Click to expand...

There's already an entity in place, the FSC (Forestry Stewardship Council), that exists pretty much for that exact purpose, to maintain CoC records. However the periodic licensing fee to be allowed to rely on their certification and display it on your goods is prety darn hefty.
In addition you must be "certified" yourself.
I think it would be a great system for customs purposes, but there is still the issue of preventing and or recognizing counterfeit certifications.

OK, I can't bite my tongue on this one Al. The statement about Malaysia is very misleading. Having lived there, and as I've stated in previous threads, the deforestation in Malaysia, as in Indonesia, has little to do with guitars or furniture, it has everything to do with clearing land to grow biofuel crops. We drove through miles upon miles of palm oil plantations while I was there, all cleared from jungle relatively recently at the time, and it was common knowledge that the air was thick with choking smoke from the fires which cleared land in Indonesia about 150 miles to the south, with the prevailing winds blowing south to north, right up the Malay peninsula.....and that was 12 years ago.

To me, the post implies that what's gone on in Malaysia is attributable to tables and instruments, but it's not. I certainly can't attest to deforestation in Africa, but I saw and breathed this with my own eyes and lungs and heard this explanation from the Malay people with my own ears......very big business there.

West

bluesypicky · Oct 30, 2012

West R Lee said:
:lol: I think I'll sit this one out and just read.West

You didn't even give me a chance to put a bet on this one!.... it only took one more post!

:lol: :lol: :lol:

I, on the other hand, am comfortably sitting and reading. :mrgreen:

adorshki · Oct 30, 2012

West R Lee said:
OK, I can't bite my tongue on this one Al. The statement about Malaysia is very misleading. Having lived there, and as I've stated in previous threads, the deforestation in Malaysia, as in Indonesia, has little to do with guitars or furniture. To me, the post implies that what's gone on in Malaysia is attributable to tables and instruments, but it's not.

I understand how you could get that, but in fact I was simply trying to illustrate a known example of an animal species being endangered by illegal logging. And in fact there's another endangering factor for orangutans, that the infants're very popular as (illegal) pets. So admittedly I "picked my evidence", but again, the point is, illegal logging for whatever purpose doesn't just endanger wood supplies, there's a ton of collateral ecological damage too, and that's the real purpose of the CITES treaty, to try to rein it in by making it difficult to profit from illegal trade.
It was about orangutans being on the verge of extinction largely due to illegal logging, not that the illegally logged wood was being used for guitars or furniture, even though the first source cited mentioned both commercial and agricultural logging. :wink:
The show I saw about the illegal harvesting Africa didn't go into what animals may be being endangered there, it wasn't part of the mission for that particular journalistic endeavor.
I can understand why trade diplomats aren't real worried about the frustrations of owners of vintage guitars compared to the amount of damage being done to ecosystems all over the planet, that's all. I have no doubt those guitar owners' frustrations are way way down on their list of concerns, if they even make the list. It's just the way it is. The hit on the trade in vintage guitars is collateral damage in the war on illegal trade in endangered species. That was my point.
Hope I explained that well. :wink:

adorshki · Oct 30, 2012

bluesypicky said:
West R Lee said:

:lol: I think I'll sit this one out and just read.West

Click to expand...

You didn't even give me a chance to put a bet on this one!.... it only took one more post!

:lol: :lol: :lol:

I, on the other hand, am comfortably sitting and reading. :mrgreen:

You trying to propose a page count wager, sir? :lol:

West R Lee · Oct 30, 2012

adorshki said:
bluesypicky said:

West R Lee said:

:lol: I think I'll sit this one out and just read.West

Click to expand...

You didn't even give me a chance to put a bet on this one!.... it only took one more post!

:lol: :lol: :lol:

I, on the other hand, am comfortably sitting and reading. :mrgreen:

Click to expand...

You trying to propose a page count wager, sir? :lol:

:lol: Have you ever read something that you absolutely knew wasn't true? How've you been brother?

West

adorshki · Oct 30, 2012

West R Lee said:
adorshki said:

bluesypicky said:

You didn't even give me a chance to put a bet on this one!.... it only took one more post!

:lol: :lol: :lol:

I, on the other hand, am comfortably sitting and reading. :mrgreen:

Click to expand...

You trying to propose a page count wager, sir? :lol:

Click to expand...

:lol: Have you ever read something that you absolutely knew wasn't true? How've you been brother?

West

Good my brother, although apparently I've had a bit of difficulty lately, in selecting appropriate examples to illustrate some obscure point I've decided to make. :lol:
Dear Lord, lead us not into discussions of global warming, either. :lol:

bluesypicky · Oct 30, 2012

adorshki said:
You trying to propose a page count wager, sir? :lol:

:lol: :lol: :lol:
I don't believe y'all need the tease of a page count... I feel you motivated enough. You can run free! No pressure added! Total freedom I say. You can even play it naked if you want.... as long as you don't post the pics. :shock: :lol:

bluesypicky · Oct 30, 2012

West R Lee said:
:lol: Have you ever read something that you absolutely knew wasn't true? How've you been brother?

West

C'mon now Jim.... if it's online, ya know it's gotta be true. :lol:

Vintage Guitar Show in Germany cancelled due to CITES issues

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