Talent vs. Hard Work

In another thread, charliea posted this:

"I don't get signature models. You get to play like Doyle Dykes the same way you get to Carnegie Hall. The guitar specs don't have squat to do with it."

Now, I'm assuming he was referring to this old saying: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/29/nyreg ... html/?_r=0

Which got me to thinking, if I had practiced enough (and I agree that having his signature guitar wouldn't help much) could I ever play like Doyle Dykes? Even close? I think we've all played with other folks who are clearly blessed with something "extra" that enhances their musical abilities beyond whatever passes for normal.

At his LMG3 performance, Mr. Dykes opened with a medley of patriotic songs that was simply awesome to hear and see him play. He introduced the song by saying that he'd played this song at a talent contest in high school (and won). So, he was already an awesome player at 16 or 17 years of age.

So... how much does practice come into play at the Doyle Dykes level? And how much can be explained by assuming that when they were handing out musical talent, he went back through the line several more times?

Dave

I believe those who excel at certain things are blessed with that certain "something" that makes them that much better at the particular task or skill. Michael Jordan had the "right stuff" to be one of the best basketball players ever, yet couldn't play baseball at better than a lower minor league level. What if Tiger Wood's father had been a soccer fanatic instead of a golfer? Who knows, but excellence in one sport or mental discipline seldom means a person is exceptional in all sports or career paths.
The "Outlier" book talks about 10,000 hours to master something, but I can't help but feel that it has to be the right 10,000 hours for the right person in the right environment. If Paul had never teamed with John and if George Martin hadn't have been there to shape and mold them, would the Beatles have ended up just being the Dave Clark 5?
T

We all have natural abilities or talents. Where we take them is up to us.
I can play the guitar but I will never be proficient at it. It just isn't something that comes naturally to me.
I don't have the dexterity to be fast. Never did.
I have put in a lot of hard work and a lot of practice into the guitar. It had definitely payed off for me.
With that said, I will never be a great guitarist. It just isn't in me.

One man's -- okay, the mega-talented Phil X's -- opinion on practicing.

"There's a theory that Mozart, by the time he reached the age of 14 he had already had 20,000 hours of practice by the time he was 14. So at that point, is he really a virtuoso or did he just practice a whole bunch?"

Talent obviously plays a rolem, but the combination of talent and hard work is what makes you proficient and upwards towards great.

I have three regrets as a guitar player: I wish I had more talent, I wish I had more time to practice and I wish I had started when I was younger, much younger.

Based upon my experience on tuba, having parents who were professional musicians and a sibling who got more than her share of musical talent I think there is a level of performance that can be reached by hard work or by inherent talent. Either one will get you there. What that level actually means depends upon your surroundings and competition. I'd say that level includes a lot of "gifted amateur" performers, music teachers, and players who go to where the jobs are. To exceed that level requires both talent and hard work. I'm convinced that hard work alone will never get a person to the point where they are called "a world class musician" and no matter how much talent someone has, working at it will make them better.

fronobulax said:

I'm convinced that hard work alone will never get a person to the point where they are called "a world class musician" and no matter how much talent someone has, working at it will make them better.

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I like that!

Dave

[quote="dapmdave
I like that!

[/quote]


Same here :!:

fronobulax said:

Based upon my experience on tuba, having parents who were professional musicians and a sibling who got more than her share of musical talent I think there is a level of performance that can be reached by hard work or by inherent talent. Either one will get you there. What that level actually means depends upon your surroundings and competition. I'd say that level includes a lot of "gifted amateur" performers, music teachers, and players who go to where the jobs are. To exceed that level requires both talent and hard work. I'm convinced that hard work alone will never get a person to the point where they are called "a world class musician" and no matter how much talent someone has, working at it will make them better.

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There is one ingredient that is absolutely necessary for improving knowledge and skills. And that is desire. In order to improve you have to want to. As a kid I took the required music lessons on piano and it all went over my head. As a teen I played trombone in the Boston youth symphony orchestra and later the high school marching band. But I never really cared. I never really enjoyed or wanted to improve until I started guitar. Something's got to click so there's a reward at the end of the stick or it just doesn't matter. Just sayin.

griehund said:

There is one ingredient that is absolutely necessary for improving knowledge and skills. And that is desire. In order to improve you have to want to.

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Plus 100. Everybody who ever asked me how I got to where I'm at, I told 'em, you gotta LOVE music so much that you're willing to put up with all the frustration of just getting the basic moves down, with practice, practice, practice.
But I did always HATE that guy who could make any chord on the second attempt and learned how to play in 2 weeks. :lol:

I agree its an inherent talent to some extent, but the desire has to be there too as you guys are saying. All the stories you hear of McCartney, Harrison, Richards, Dykes, etc. is they played all day and all night for years.

And I've seen guys and gals at open mics who were excellent players and performers, and I'd say "what are they doing here"? There are many many great players that we will never hear of because they never "make it".

But, you know, even when I only knew 4 or 5 chords, I still really enjoyed it!

walrus

Not much to add, as I agree with all the above really. 'Desire' and the joy of playing ( motivation, Love of music, desire to create..) is a big key ingredient. When you have that, and act on it fully...things just follow on from there.
Great thread guys.

fronobulax said:

I'm convinced that hard work alone will never get a person to the point where they are called "a world class musician" and no matter how much talent someone has, working at it will make them better.

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Well said. Spot on. End of conversation.

walrus said:

But, you know, even when I only knew 4 or 5 chords, I still really enjoyed it!

walrus

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I still know only 4 or 5 chords

Bing k said:

walrus said:

But, you know, even when I only knew 4 or 5 chords, I still really enjoyed it!

walrus

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I still know only 4 or 5 chords

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Me, too. But think how many ways we can arrange them!

Dave

Bing k said:

walrus said:

But, you know, even when I only knew 4 or 5 chords, I still really enjoyed it!

walrus

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I still know only 4 or 5 chords

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That's why I also have a Capo. :lol:

Taylor Martin Guild said:

[quote="Bing k":3w58e6qv]

walrus said:

But, you know, even when I only knew 4 or 5 chords, I still really enjoyed it!

walrus

Click to expand...

I still know only 4 or 5 chords

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That's why I also have a Capo. :lol:[/quote:3w58e6qv]

Aha! So it's a combination of talent, hard work and a capo!