1960s Starfire vs ES330

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Hello!

I currently own several solid-body guitars and an ES-335.

I am looking to purchase my first thinline hollow-body, mainly for playing jazz but also some more jangly rock.

I have narrowed down my choices to an early 60s Starfire III with the original white DeArmond pickups or an ES-330 from the same era with P90s.

Can anyone with direct experience with these models point me in one direction or another? I have read everything I can find online about those early Starfires with the Dearmonds.
 

BradHK

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I can answer questions regarding vintage Guilds but unfortunately don’t have direct experience with a vintage ES-330 to compare. Just a couple questions, why a Starfire III over a Starfire II for jazz? I usually don’t think of a bigsby equiped guitar when I think of jazz but I am sure there are plenty of examples of people using them with great results. Have you played a vintage Starfire II or III with the anti-hum pickups? Mine can put out some good jazz tones. If that is an option then you will find much more for sale to choose from.
 
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I can answer questions regarding vintage Guilds but unfortunately don’t have direct experience with a vintage ES-330 to compare. Just a couple questions, why a Starfire III over a Starfire II for jazz? I usually don’t think of a bigsby equiped guitar when I think of jazz but I am sure there are plenty of examples of people using them with great results. Have you played a vintage Starfire II or III with the anti-hum pickups? Mine can put out some good jazz tones. If that is an option then you will find much more for sale to choose from.
Hey! Great questions. I am asking specifically about the III because there is a black one I am looking at. No other reason. Opinions on the II are also welcome. I wouldn't use the bigsby.

I suppose I am looking at the single coil tones from the DeArmonds because I have my humbucking tones covered by the 335. Some rave about those original DeArmond pickups. I had gold foils in my Hamony H59 rocket that wow'd me, but they were not 'jazz' tones.
 

BradHK

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I have a 1962 Starfire II with DeArmonds and it sounds great. I highly recommend that combination! I don’t have a Starfire III with DeArmonds to compare. However, I do have other vintage Guilds with harp tailpieces and others with the Guildsby to compare. The aluminum bigsby bridge on the III sounds brighter and a little thinner to my ears compared to the Hagstrom adjusto-matic bridge. That sound may be perfect to your ears but if you are not going to use the Guildsby then you might want to try different bridges to dial in the tone you want. If you are trying to stay original with a Guild factory optional bridge then the Melita Synchro-sonic sounds the most mellow and jazzy to me. Then of course there is the rosewood bridge option.

Good luck deciding and either option will be a great choice!
 
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You might also try out an early SF or T-100 with Franz pickups. They‘ll be brighter than an ES-330, too, but with a wooden bridge they can also be sweet and plummy. And there are lots of those around for reasonable prices.
 

rbrcbr

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Welcome! You are speaking my language here, happy to give some insight. I've got a '62 SFIII and an MIJ//USA Casino that are my two main electrics at the moment, and I've handled a lot of vintage 330s.

The white top DeArmonds in my Starfire (and just 50s/60s DeArmond 2000s in general) have a really full, round but articulate tone. These paired with the hollowbody give you really great sort of "electrified acoustic" response/tone that is woody but bright. They can get into brash tele territory on the bridge pickup, and on the neck can get jazzy while also retaining some clarity. The middle position is my favorite to use for fingerstyle. I've played old duo jets with these pickups and they're incredible - they provide the same super clear, pristine, articulate clean sounds. Overdriven, they can get a bit brash and aggressive sounding, but that works well depending on what kind of music you're playing and how much you're riding the vol/tone controls on your guitar/what pedals and amp you are using.

The ES-330/Casino thing is definitely different, but not that far off. I find that the middle position with P90s is a really nice and articulate clean sound, but it doesn't give me as much of that "electrified acoustic" feel or sound. I find that the P90s definitely make it more of an "electric" guitar, if that makes sense. The neck pickup is super wooly, bassy, and warm - maybe sort of like the DeArmond neck but with a blanket draped over top. The bridge p90 is classic rock and roll - I used it for a gig sitting in on guitar this past spring with a friend's band and basically lived on the bridge position the entire time to be able to sit in the mix properly. On it's own at home, I can't say that I find it useful as it feels a bit brittle as a clean sound, but live it's a really great tone, especially with a bit of overdrive. The P90s generally seem to love overdrive pedals and more pleasingly overdrive an amp than the DeArmonds. The warm, wooliness of those pickups works super well in that context as you don't get as much of the harshness of other pickups when your signal clips, and this is pretty nice when you want feedback as you can kind of ride that hollowbody resonance without killing your ears with high end.

One way it has been put to me in the past is that the DeArmonds require a bit more precision when it comes to touch to sound good, since they're so pristine, whereas with P90s you can be a bit more sloppy with technique (especially with overdrive) as your sound is enveloped in warmth and gooey wooly goodness.

All of this is dependent on your technique, amplifier, and individual guitar of course, but hopefully you find this helpful. I'm a mostly fingerstyle guy that plays almost exclusively with nails, so that for sure affects my perception of these guitars.

I just remembered I have recent demos of both that I put up, here you go:




Last thing I'll say, as told to me by the great David Bromberg while discussing guitars recently - "I wouldn't kick either one out of the case".
 

Shakeylee

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i have a 60 T-100/SFI with a dearmond 2000 in the neck, i don't think there is a better sound, absolutely love the guitar,

however, when shopping for it ,i was open to any T-100, SFI,II,or III ,epiphone sorrento, granada, gibson es-125,225,330, gretsch clipper or martin F-50.F-55 etc. as long as they had,or could have,large bobbin single coils.

i think any of these guitars fill the role.
 

llmonty

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Great choices to choose from! @rbrcbr gave a great run down and I agree with what he says here. I would definitely say the Starfire - with Dearmonds or mini HBs, is chimier and brighter than my P-90 330.

Playability-wise, the neck profiles are a but different. My 66 Starfire has a 9.5" radius and a thinner, perhaps asymmetrical neck profile. My 330 has a 12" and is a bit thicker, but not a baseball bat. 330 profiles did change over the years, so you will want to check on that, if it is important to you. And also, if you are looking at a 330 "short neck" the Starfire has a little bit better fret access, even though it only has 20 frets. The larger cutaway is more comfortable for me. The ear/bout of the 330 makes even getting to the 20th fret more difficult.

Lastly, they both can do musical feedback, though I find the Starfire to be a little sweeter sounding in that regard.
 
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Thanks to everyone who took the time to reply! I stopped getting notified for some reason.
Especially thanks to @rbrcbr for those tone demos, they reflect your text description entirely. I thought I watched every early Starfire video but I guess I missed this one.

I think I am sold, I don't need another warm Gibson guitar. I sent the seller an offer on the Starfire III, let's see what he says!
 

Harp Tail

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Best of luck with your offer then!

As LesB3 smartly suggested, by purchasing a Guild you'll spend less and own a guitar whose value has a greater margin to increase. That is, if you'll end up parting with it, which I doubt.
 
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