Hello all, I have a trade consideration in front of me and wanted to learn all I could about the guitar I'd trade for. I'd be trading a Gretsch 6121 Roundup for a supposed 1963 Aristocrat. My uncertainty about the Guild is the DeArmond 2000 pickups (?) that appear on it and the tremolo that I can't seem to locate on any models (except one!) that I can find on the internet. The all-metal bridge is also unique. I actually saw a picture of one without the metal bridge that was from an Aliexpress link and thought there was no way this one I'm looking at could be a fake? Anyway, I'm seeking any knowledge of this guitars story, rarity, value compared to the Gretsch, and anything of interest to know about it. Thank you in advance for any enlightenment!
Authentication and ID...
- Thread starter allstarrr
- Start date
First of all, welcome aboard, allstarrr.
I don't think there's any reason to expect this guitar is fake in any way, but I can't speak for the originality of the hardware... For example, I don't think the tuners are original, but I'm not sure. The liptop headstock and metal TRC indicate that it's of 1960s vintage. If you would take a picture of the back of the headstock, we can read the serial number and get you a date of production.
I don't think there's any reason to expect this guitar is fake in any way, but I can't speak for the originality of the hardware... For example, I don't think the tuners are original, but I'm not sure. The liptop headstock and metal TRC indicate that it's of 1960s vintage. If you would take a picture of the back of the headstock, we can read the serial number and get you a date of production.
Prince of Darkness
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AcornHouse
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The pickups are either replaced, or have been put back after others were there. Notice the neck pickup opening is larger than the pickup and the pickguard does not fit it. I don’t recall Dearmonds being on Aristocrats, so feel that they are not original. The bridge pup has an oversized base to cover a too large opening, I think.
BradHK
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Welcome! I am the guy you talked to last night regarding buying the guitar. It is not fake but not sure if the pickups and Guildsby original. They could be but hard to tell without seeing It in person. Good luck on the trade and reach out if you would rather sell it. Thanks
Thanks for the welcome and quick replies, guys! Brad, what do you mean "the guy you talked to last night?" I didn't "talk" to anybody last night about this guitar. You're not the owner of it that I emailed, are you?
Acorn, I was thinking the pickup ring bass was just missing from the neck pickup, but as you mention it, it looks like the pickguard is cut too big for any pickup that could have been inside the neck pickup cutout, and maybe is not an original pickguard? Is the pickup ring bass original on the bridge pickup?
The tuners are Grovers and not original. Chazmo, what is the metal TRC you're referring to, the bridge? The closest I could find from that is Tru-Arc? I'm including a back of the headstock pic and a link to a page that speaks to the DeArmond 2000 pickups in a M75 with pictures that show a possibly Guild and possibly stock tremolo, show the same bridge and also show that the pickup ring base doesn't look stock on this Guild I'm looking at. It looks like the pickups might have been changed out for outsized pickups and reverted back to P90ish DeArmonds, as was suggested by Acorn, and possibly a cover was found for the bridge pickup but not the neck. If anyone can definitively tell the story on this, I'll keep tuning in to see, and thanks again for the feedback!
Acorn, I was thinking the pickup ring bass was just missing from the neck pickup, but as you mention it, it looks like the pickguard is cut too big for any pickup that could have been inside the neck pickup cutout, and maybe is not an original pickguard? Is the pickup ring bass original on the bridge pickup?
The tuners are Grovers and not original. Chazmo, what is the metal TRC you're referring to, the bridge? The closest I could find from that is Tru-Arc? I'm including a back of the headstock pic and a link to a page that speaks to the DeArmond 2000 pickups in a M75 with pictures that show a possibly Guild and possibly stock tremolo, show the same bridge and also show that the pickup ring base doesn't look stock on this Guild I'm looking at. It looks like the pickups might have been changed out for outsized pickups and reverted back to P90ish DeArmonds, as was suggested by Acorn, and possibly a cover was found for the bridge pickup but not the neck. If anyone can definitively tell the story on this, I'll keep tuning in to see, and thanks again for the feedback!
Attachments
Allstarrr... The "TRC" is the truss rod cover next to the nut on the headstock.
BradHK
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Sorry! I thought you were the person with the Guild rather than the person with the Gretsch!
Ahh... understood, I should have figured out Trust Rod Cover, though I wouldn't have guessed it was metal by the look of it.
I just realized that the photo offered by the Prince pretty much authenticates the guitar completely. This one has a silver hardware instead of gold, but everything else checks out for a 1962-63 M75. The two things that strike me are that the Guildsby's are the same on both the guitar I'm considering, and the guitar in the picture that POD posted, which said that that bigsby wasn't stock and was produced years later. I might suggest that rather than coincidence, maybe those Guildsby's were somehow actually stock back in 62-63?
The second thing that makes me wonder is how the pickguard is so cleanly cut wider than a stock guard that would have fit flush with the perimeter of the pickup, and that the (modified?) cutout of the pickup hole couldn't even have housed a pickup the width of the (modded?) guard cut? Doesn't make sense to me. I'd think maybe the guard was from a different model, but the bridge pickup is cut for the M2000 pickup as perfectly as the neck side of the guard is cut for a humbucker or something, even though the pickup hole isn't cut for anything so big. The whole picture is puzzling to me even though I'm far from any guitar expert.
It was interesting to see the pickup ring bases, suggesting that this Guild is only missing the stock ring base for the neck pickup, which again suggests an earlier pickup swap that resulted in a lost ring base. Is the neck pickup hole noticeably modified, or could that have been a factory cut to be covered up that the pickup ring base and that whoever never got around to the actual hole cut?
The bridge certainly looks correct to the POD pic. I do wish the tuners were original, but I think I'm going to look more into a swap. I do like very much my Gretsch, but perhaps it's time for a guitar adventure...
I just realized that the photo offered by the Prince pretty much authenticates the guitar completely. This one has a silver hardware instead of gold, but everything else checks out for a 1962-63 M75. The two things that strike me are that the Guildsby's are the same on both the guitar I'm considering, and the guitar in the picture that POD posted, which said that that bigsby wasn't stock and was produced years later. I might suggest that rather than coincidence, maybe those Guildsby's were somehow actually stock back in 62-63?
The second thing that makes me wonder is how the pickguard is so cleanly cut wider than a stock guard that would have fit flush with the perimeter of the pickup, and that the (modified?) cutout of the pickup hole couldn't even have housed a pickup the width of the (modded?) guard cut? Doesn't make sense to me. I'd think maybe the guard was from a different model, but the bridge pickup is cut for the M2000 pickup as perfectly as the neck side of the guard is cut for a humbucker or something, even though the pickup hole isn't cut for anything so big. The whole picture is puzzling to me even though I'm far from any guitar expert.
It was interesting to see the pickup ring bases, suggesting that this Guild is only missing the stock ring base for the neck pickup, which again suggests an earlier pickup swap that resulted in a lost ring base. Is the neck pickup hole noticeably modified, or could that have been a factory cut to be covered up that the pickup ring base and that whoever never got around to the actual hole cut?
The bridge certainly looks correct to the POD pic. I do wish the tuners were original, but I think I'm going to look more into a swap. I do like very much my Gretsch, but perhaps it's time for a guitar adventure...
Could we get a picture of the back of the headstock to help date it for you? There should be a serial number at the crown.
powerwagonjohn
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I can't wait to hear what Hans has to say about this one! cool guitar either way.
Thanks John
Thanks John