Difficulty adjusting Truss Rod on a D-1212 to lower the action.

[Tony_Wales]

Hi All
I've had my D-1212 for two years, and feel that it's time to lower the action (3mm from bottom of string to top of fret at the 12th).
I want to start by putting a small turn on the truss rod, but I just cannot do it (though I do have the strings on).
But I just cannot get the supplied L-shaped hex driver that came with the guitar to catch properly and turn.

Is it likely to need a lot of force?

Thank you - I've hit the Angry and Frustrated time and would appreciate being brought back to equanimity.

Best wishes

Tony

 

[schoolie]

Welcome, Tony! Can you measure how much relief the neck has now?
9:38 Now playing How to Adjust the Action on an Acoustic Guitar

 

[jedzep]

Hah, I know it’s tricky finding the nut sometimes, but it has to be snug to begin the turning process. It very well could be hard to move once you engage. Detune a little and start by turning counter clockwise as if adding relief, then work into the other direction. Before forcing it, have an assistant manually add force straightening with their hands to assist the flattening of the neck. That should loosen enough to get the rod working.

 

[jedzep]

I’m assuming no prior owner bunged up the nut, but if you continue to not connect you’ll have to get a mirror in there to check it out.

 

[ClaytonS15]

I would suggest loosening at least some of the strings to give yourself less tension as you adjust the truss rod. Also, it appears that the truss rod adjustment is on the body side. I’d definitely try slacking the strings to give yourself more room to insert and turn the wrench.

 

[Tony_Wales]

Thank you guys!
I did loosen the strings to make it easier, and every video I've seen (including the one from Schoolie) show people hardly using any force.
Maybe it's a job to leave until I next re-string?

 

[JohnW63]

Is the neck not in the proper shape to allow you to lower the saddle?

 

[jedzep]

I assume you’re saying you’re still having trouble seating the wrench. True?

 

[Tony_Wales]

@JohnW63 - I think I will need to take 2mm off the saddle too. I need to find someone with a nice belt sander.

@jedzep - that's it. I'm struggling to fit the Allen / hex driver. I think I got it in once, but couldn't turn it.

 

[jedzep]

As for sanding the saddle, unless it’s NOT a drop in, you can make a mark where you want to stop, and attach a piece of 150 grit paper to a flat piece of wood, then run the saddle over it until you reach your mark.

If it’s a saddle with long ends, the sanding is done from the top… a little trickier.

If you have a good shop nearby, bringing it in for a setup could be the best 75 bucks you can spend.

 

[Nuuska]

Hello

Sounds to me - please correct if I'm wrong - that you do have problem getting th allen wrench into nut slot right - and therefore you can not adjust the trus rod.

Please notice - hex-nuts have 60-dgree intervalls - therefore it is very likely, that the D&G strings need to be loosened somewhat to allow the wrench to securely slip into truss-rod-nut.

Once you have that right you should have no problem adjusting the trussrod.

 

[Br1ck]

Absolutely to nitpick, but changing neck relief is not the same as lowering action. Neck relief is there to give a neck curvature so strings don't contact the frets at their greatest vibration distance. Can it affect the clearance at the 12th fret? Yes it can, but action is adjusted at the nut and saddle. Have you measured? You need a capo and a set of feeler gauges any auto supply store carries. Capo the first fret, press at the 12th and measure clearance at the sixth or seventh. Some say up to .012 is acceptable, but I like more like .005 which needs very flat level frets. .008 is generally viewed as acceptable. This only affects the curvature of the neck to about the 12th fret.

Action is checked at the nut and saddle. A quick check can be done by pressing the string at the third fret, then fretting the second. There should be some, but very little clearance over the first fret. If there is more than a few thousandths of an inch, your nut slots should be deepened. This does wonders for the action at the first few frets. Action at the twelfth fret should be around .090-.095 at the low E measured from the top of the fret to the bottom of the string. This is a matter of taste. Some flat pickers want as much as .105 or as low as .085. If you want lower than you have, material needs to be removed from your saddle. None of this is rocket science, but experience is a huge plus, and in addition, necessary tools can exceed twice what a pro would charge you. A general rule of thumb is the more inexpensive a guitar is, the more off the setup is likely to be. Get into the more expensive guitars and a factory guitar might be Plek'd. That doesn't mean you will like a factory Martin setup.

The more you understand guitar geometry, the better you can explain what you want, and as a matter of courtesy never use the words as low as it can go without buzzing.

 

[chazmo]

Thank you guys!
I did loosen the strings to make it easier, and every video I've seen (including the one from Schoolie) show people hardly using any force.
Maybe it's a job to leave until I next re-string?

If it's requiring serious force to crank the truss rods, then there's a problem. Find a guitar tech to help set this up. Do NOT use force; it should be easy to turn it.

 

[jedzep]

I always assume that with the advanced access to internet we have, most would take advantage of it to gain a better understanding of guitar geometry. There’s a load of it out there, however if it’s an early learning experience, especially with a 12 stringer, I’d always recommend using a pro to get things generically good. Once you make adjustments out of correct order, you risk having to backtrack over your first attempt,

 

[chazmo]

Small (1/4) turns on the truss rod will not hurt your guitar. More than a half turn, get some help. I encourage folks to at least try. But that said, Dave's point is valid. You can damage your guitar with incorrect adjustments here.

 

[Tony_Wales]

If it's requiring serious force to crank the truss rods, then there's a problem. Find a guitar tech to help set this up. Do NOT use force; it should be easy to turn it.

Thank you - that's kinda what I was after.

I always assume that with the advanced access to internet we have, most would take advantage of it to gain a better understanding ....

You'd be surprised how many people on this internet suggest a quarter turn tighten of the truss rod as a simple, reversible first step in lowering the action.

Absolutely to nitpick,

I enjoy a nitpick. You can't be on an acoustic guitar forum and worry about the nitpicks.

Action is checked at the nut and saddle. A quick check can be done by pressing the string at the third fret, then fretting the second. There should be some, but very little clearance over the first fret. If there is more than a few thousandths of an inch, your nut slots should be deepened. This does wonders for the action at the first few frets. Action at the twelfth fret should be around .090-.095 at the low E measured from the top of the fret to the bottom of the string.

It looks fine at the nut, and goes very by the 12th. I think the gap from bottom of string to (unfretted) fret is more like .125.
To get to .090 I believe I would need to remove twice the difference due to geometry, so (0.125-0.09)x2 = 0.07 of an inch. That sounds a lot.

 

[Tony_Wales]

Uodate!

So I had a really good look at the neck in strong light against straight lines, and I could see it bending upwards!
Knowing that the truss needed tightening, I loosened D & G as much as I could, found the hole, and untightened a bit first as I think someone suggested.
The untighten seemed to help, but it still needed some proper force to turn clockwise.
However, it started moving.
I've probably put over a half turn on, and I can already see it is straighter.
Action has moved from around .125 to 0.1, maybe .095. It's playing great and I think I can already feel those bar chords up the neck feeling easier.

However, I'm now going to leave it a few days to "settle". I will try to get it around .09 with maybe another quarter turn later in the week,

Thank you all very much for your input, it's been great having you all here in the room with me while I did this.

 

[jedzep]

Good on you, cautiously fearless.

 

[chazmo]

Excellent, Tony. Good luck. Slow, small increments. Also, make sure that you keep the guitar well-humidified as you make these adjustments.

Since you're finding that the neck has bowed forward, it should require less force to make the TR adjustments with the strings slacked.

I hope this is all the adjusting you need, Tony, but you may find that you get fret buzz as you straighten it out. In that case, you will need to have some fret work. It's possible that the guitar came from the factory this way or that a prior owner loosened the TR because of other problems.