Dreadnought action?

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hey guild fam --

how do you all like to keep the action on your D's? what's the philosophy here? i've historically played very low actions, but i've also never played guilds until now. started playing a D25 a few weeks back...suspected that the action was a little high at first, but now i'm starting to think it feels good where it's at. it's definitely in a healthy mid-range-spot. i guess it all depends on the kind of music you're playing, yeah? i mostly play old-timey american/bluegrass/and finger-picking folk stuff. i know people say a higher action means more punch...a lower action gives you a more subdued sound... i think i'd like something in between.

feel free to throw out millimeter numbers. i'm just rather untechnical and don't have a measuring tape at home...but when i acquire one i can compare measurements!

happy friday!
 

West R Lee

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Well Cridders, I'll take a stab, but this could be a fairly deep question. How do I like to keep the action on my Ds? I like it low, very low, just short of buzzing. But then you open up a whole can of worms in that discussion. First, I like the action low because I primarily don't play anything but finger style, and it's very rare that I use a pick. However, I also like light gauge strings and with low action and light strings, you've got to be careful or you will in fact get buzz. Remember that "buzzing" is not simply a function of low action or a potential neck issue, it can also be caused, or aggravated by string "deflection", or how much (how far) the strings vibrates. Obviously there is more deflection with light gauge strings compared to heavier strings. But if you're like me, and don't hit the strings hard with a pick, and play a more gentle finger style, that deflection won't be as severe. Does that make sense?

As a general rule, in my mind anyway, with heavy strings you run less risk of buzzing with lower action. As far as your D25 is concerned, they are fabulous guitars, maybe the very best guitar ever built for the market at that price point in my opinion, and I say that without exaggeration. In fact, I've owned one (D25M) myself for almost 44 years. Regarding action, or lower action and it's effect on volume of the guitar, some may adamantly disagree, but I've never noticed a substantial change in the volume, or projection of a guitar with lower action. And I assure you that I've read quite the opposite many times over the years.

James Taylor @ about 1:20.

And Tommy Emmanuel at about 1:00.






It sounds as if you're happy with where your guitar is set up now, then I'd say leave it alone.

West
 
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GardMan

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Hey cridders...
I don't think you will find a universal answer... optimum "action" (which also relates to "relief") are very much a matter of personal playing style and opinion.

I mostly strum with a pick these days, with some bass runs or melody lines thrown in here and there... What you might call rhythm guitar. I used to finger pick more, but too much finger picking aggravates the tendons out near my elbow these days. Plus, with bare nails (I never found finger picks I could get used to) I just can't get sufficient volume for my finger stuff to be heard in a jam setting, and fine finger coordination is also the first thing to go when I get nervous (like I do when I play for any group)...

So, I tend to have my action a little on the high side. Using a StewMac string height gauge, which measures in 0.005" increments (sort of), the actions on three of my six Guild dreads (D-35, D-46, and D-70) are about 0.105" and 0.070" on the E/e, respectively. In fractional inches, that's 6-7 (E) and 4-5 (e) 64ths of an inch, respectively. My DV-72 NT (turquoise) has the lowest action, at 0.095" E and 0.065" e... I'd actually like it a bit higher, but I didn't have a taller saddle blank when I set it up, and have been too lazy to see if I can get a taller blank. My DV-72M (malachite) is a little higher on the E than the 72 NT, at 0.100" E and about the same e, at 0.065". The highest action on any of my Guilds is on my DV-73, at 0.110" and 0.075" E/e, dictated by how low I was willing to go with the saddle.

All of them play easily, are comfortable when I want to finger pick, but can be strummed pretty hard before they will buzz or break up.

My advice would be just to play around... Starting with one of Colosi's pre-made Martins drop-in saddles ($30 last time I looked), a hobby "razor" saw to cut it to length, and a few bucks for sandpaper, it only takes 45 minutes or so make make a new, shorter or taller, bone saddle. Bone saddle blanks are even cheaper... but you would then need a vise and a file or two for the rough shaping.

Have fun!
 

Br1ck

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I bought a Martin D 35 from Bryan Kimsey. He sent it to me with .013s, and only .004 relief. Said it could go lower, but I never felt the need. It's a setup a bluegrass flatpicker would love. With very little relief, your frets are critical. Get everything right, you won't realize they aren't .012s. But I like to fight a guitar some.
 

West R Lee

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Hey cridders...
I don't think you will find a universal answer... optimum "action" (which also relates to "relief") are very much a matter of personal playing style and opinion.

I mostly strum with a pick these days, with some bass runs or melody lines thrown in here and there... What you might call rhythm guitar. I used to finger pick more, but too much finger picking aggravates the tendons out near my elbow these days. Plus, with bare nails (I never found finger picks I could get used to) I just can't get sufficient volume for my finger stuff to be heard in a jam setting, and fine finger coordination is also the first thing to go when I get nervous (like I do when I play for any group)...

So, I tend to have my action a little on the high side. Using a StewMac string height gauge, which measures in 0.005" increments (sort of), the actions on three of my six Guild dreads (D-35, D-46, and D-70) are about 0.105" and 0.070" on the E/e, respectively. In fractional inches, that's 6-7 (E) and 4-5 (e) 64ths of an inch, respectively. My DV-72 NT (turquoise) has the lowest action, at 0.095" E and 0.065" e... I'd actually like it a bit higher, but I didn't have a taller saddle blank when I set it up, and have been too lazy to see if I can get a taller blank. My DV-72M (malachite) is a little higher on the E than the 72 NT, at 0.100" E and about the same e, at 0.065". The highest action on any of my Guilds is on my DV-73, at 0.110" and 0.075" E/e, dictated by how low I was willing to go with the saddle.

All of them play easily, are comfortable when I want to finger pick, but can be strummed pretty hard before they will buzz or break up.

My advice would be just to play around... Starting with one of Colosi's pre-made Martins drop-in saddles ($30 last time I looked), a hobby "razor" saw to cut it to length, and a few bucks for sandpaper, it only takes 45 minutes or so make make a new, shorter or taller, bone saddle. Bone saddle blanks are even cheaper... but you would then need a vise and a file or two for the rough shaping.

Have fun!
Interesting Dave. So Colosi's Martin "drop in" saddles are a dead ringer for a Guild fit?

West
 

GardMan

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Interesting Dave. So Colosi's Martin "drop in" saddles are a dead ringer for a Guild fit?

West
I wouldn't call Colosi's saddles a "dead ringer," but fitting them to a Guild is pretty easy. I used them frequently before I started making my own saddles from blanks. I liked Bob's saddles... they were consistently high quality, and (IMO) the top radius was sufficiently close to that of Guilds fret boards that I didn't need to make any corrections. Bob sends good written instructions with pictures along with each saddle... the only step that isn't covered is trimming to length to fit the Guild slot.

Colosi's 3/32" Martin drop in saddle is a usually just a smidge too thick to fit into a Westerly Guild saddle slot... so just a little sanding is required to thin it down. You want it to slide easily into the slot without forcing, but be sufficiently tight that it won't fall out if you turn the guitar face down. Just a little sanding of the top is then needed to round off any sharp edge (IIRC, Bob covers this in his instructions).

The saddle slot on all my Westerly-era dreads was shorter than the Colosi saddles, requiring that they be cut to length. The only tricky part was making the cuts so that compensation aligned correctly with the B (2nd) string. IIRC, you end up cutting a little (but not equal amounts?) from BOTH ENDS. Then I round and smooth the ends to fit the rounded ends of the Guild saddle slot, and round the top corners (for aesthetics).

In my experience, the most time-consuming step is sanding to the proper height... you just have to go slow and keep checking the string action with the saddle installed. I was always replacing an existing saddle, with the intent of either raising or lowering the action... using the old saddle as a guide, I would mark the bottom of the saddle with a line that would leave the saddle just a little taller than I wanted, sand the bottom carefully to that line (Bob gives instructions and sanding in a manner to keep the bottom flat), install and check action, decide how much more needs to come off... sand a little more, install and check the action... etc. It might take 3 or 4 iterations to finally get the height I wanted.

Because my process required multiple checks with the strings brought to tension, I would usually try and do the saddle fitting with OLD strings, and install new strings AFTER I had made all the adjustments. The first one I ever did probably took me close to 2 hours... much of that resulting from "Measure twice, cut once!" mentality. Later, I was able to fit a saddle in about 45 min.

My worst experience was fitting the saddle to my DV-72MK during it's initial set up shortly after I bought it. By this time, I had done the procedure many times...I measured carefully against the old saddle, sanded to the line... and IT WAS TOO SHORT! I must have measured wrong, so I got out another Colosi saddle I had, went thru the whole process again, and IT WAS TOO SHORT AGAIN! After much bad language (I had just "wasted**" two Colosi saddles) and head scratching, I finally realized that the old saddle I was replacing, and that I was measuring against, had not been fitted properly. When installed, the old saddle did not reach the bottom of the saddle slot, but was wedging in the slot part way down! (which is a potential danger of splitting the bridge!). Because I was now out of Colosi saddles, I had to make one from a blank I had...

**I was able to use one of the "too short" Colosi saddles later on the D-70 I bought from BeeCee. I still have the other, and might be able to use it in the future on another guitar.

I haven't had to make/adjust/install a saddle for a couple years now (since I boght my D-70 from BeeCee in 2020)... but think I will need to soon, the saddle on my DV-73 is starting to show some wear notches along its top from the strings. I'll have to rummage thru my guitar tool box to see if I have any bone blanks, or maybe I'll just take the short cut and order a saddle from Bob Colosi...
 

West R Lee

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I wouldn't call Colosi's saddles a "dead ringer," but fitting them to a Guild is pretty easy. I used them frequently before I started making my own saddles from blanks. I liked Bob's saddles... they were consistently high quality, and (IMO) the top radius was sufficiently close to that of Guilds fret boards that I didn't need to make any corrections. Bob sends good written instructions with pictures along with each saddle... the only step that isn't covered is trimming to length to fit the Guild slot.

Colosi's 3/32" Martin drop in saddle is a usually just a smidge too thick to fit into a Westerly Guild saddle slot... so just a little sanding is required to thin it down. You want it to slide easily into the slot without forcing, but be sufficiently tight that it won't fall out if you turn the guitar face down. Just a little sanding of the top is then needed to round off any sharp edge (IIRC, Bob covers this in his instructions).

The saddle slot on all my Westerly-era dreads was shorter than the Colosi saddles, requiring that they be cut to length. The only tricky part was making the cuts so that compensation aligned correctly with the B (2nd) string. IIRC, you end up cutting a little (but not equal amounts?) from BOTH ENDS. Then I round and smooth the ends to fit the rounded ends of the Guild saddle slot, and round the top corners (for aesthetics).

In my experience, the most time-consuming step is sanding to the proper height... you just have to go slow and keep checking the string action with the saddle installed. I was always replacing an existing saddle, with the intent of either raising or lowering the action... using the old saddle as a guide, I would mark the bottom of the saddle with a line that would leave the saddle just a little taller than I wanted, sand the bottom carefully to that line (Bob gives instructions and sanding in a manner to keep the bottom flat), install and check action, decide how much more needs to come off... sand a little more, install and check the action... etc. It might take 3 or 4 iterations to finally get the height I wanted.

Because my process required multiple checks with the strings brought to tension, I would usually try and do the saddle fitting with OLD strings, and install new strings AFTER I had made all the adjustments. The first one I ever did probably took me close to 2 hours... much of that resulting from "Measure twice, cut once!" mentality. Later, I was able to fit a saddle in about 45 min.

My worst experience was fitting the saddle to my DV-72MK during it's initial set up shortly after I bought it. By this time, I had done the procedure many times...I measured carefully against the old saddle, sanded to the line... and IT WAS TOO SHORT! I must have measured wrong, so I got out another Colosi saddle I had, went thru the whole process again, and IT WAS TOO SHORT AGAIN! After much bad language (I had just "wasted**" two Colosi saddles) and head scratching, I finally realized that the old saddle I was replacing, and that I was measuring against, had not been fitted properly. When installed, the old saddle did not reach the bottom of the saddle slot, but was wedging in the slot part way down! (which is a potential danger of splitting the bridge!). Because I was now out of Colosi saddles, I had to make one from a blank I had...

**I was able to use one of the "too short" Colosi saddles later on the D-70 I bought from BeeCee. I still have the other, and might be able to use it in the future on another guitar.

I haven't had to make/adjust/install a saddle for a couple years now (since I boght my D-70 from BeeCee in 2020)... but think I will need to soon, the saddle on my DV-73 is starting to show some wear notches along its top from the strings. I'll have to rummage thru my guitar tool box to see if I have any bone blanks, or maybe I'll just take the short cut and order a saddle from Bob Colosi...
Thanks for the in depth explanation Dave. And you know, if your DV73's are like my DV72, they have a much thinner saddle than any other Guild guitar I've owned. I've not measure thickness and compared to other Guilds, but I'd geusstimate maybe close to half the thickness. I really don't recall the saddle thickness of the DV73 I recently sold to a member here.

I am very much into precision measurement when doing tasks like this Dave, but have never gone through a process similar to yours, which I really like because it's so thorough. No guesswork.

And I can sure see the dilemma in what you experienced with the 72MK. We many times assume what we have is a correct fit, when in reality, sometimes people who didn't have a clue made an attempt to modify and did an incorrect fit. And saddle radius is an aspect that I think sometimes people don't stop to consider. And yes, it's a wonder that saddle slot didn't split with tension of the strings for who knows how long. Good thing you caught that.

West
 
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davenumber2

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I set all my guitars to 6/64” low E, 4/64” high e. Mediums on the dreads and lights on anything smaller. Minimal relief. Nut slots at fret height. They all play great and I can strum and pick hard without buzzing. I wouldn’t want it any lower unless I was playing strictly light touch fingerstyle, which I’m not.
 

adorshki

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I set all my guitars to 6/64” low E, 4/64” high e. Mediums on the dreads and lights on anything smaller. Minimal relief. Nut slots at fret height. They all play great and I can strum and pick hard without buzzing. I wouldn’t want it any lower unless I was playing strictly light touch fingerstyle, which I’m not.
Those were published factory spec action heights in '97 Guild Gallery #1. (All of mine ('96-'04) came that way "out of the box" and it's always been the my preferred height with EJ-16's, at least. Best all-around compromise for really hard strumming to finger-style.
 

Br1ck

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If you need to lower your action by ten thousandths at the 12th fret, you need to take twenty thousandths off your saddle. Maybe you would start with sixteen thousandths and go from there.
 

Bill Ashton

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...just a personal thought...if you are playing bluegrass regularly, if you have the relief and action set too low
you will get a lot of "slap" or buzzing, and the sound will not be clean...better to have a little higher than not.

On the other hand, if doing fingerstyle, I would say you want as low as you can get without buzz.

"Rule Of Thumb," and don't ask me where I got it from, but your neck-relief should be set at about what your high
E gauge is. "Action" is different from neck relief, and do not use your truss rod to set the "action."

All that said, have fun!

Postscript: I didn't know TE used medium gauge strings! Wow!
 

Westerly Wood

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...just a personal thought...if you are playing bluegrass regularly, if you have the relief and action set too low
you will get a lot of "slap" or buzzing, and the sound will not be clean...better to have a little higher than not.

On the other hand, if doing fingerstyle, I would say you want as low as you can get without buzz.

"Rule Of Thumb," and don't ask me where I got it from, but your neck-relief should be set at about what your high
E gauge is. "Action" is different from neck relief, and do not use your truss rod to set the "action."

All that said, have fun!

Postscript: I didn't know TE used medium gauge strings! Wow!
I bet it's the b/e strings, they are so frustratingly skinny
 

Br1ck

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...just a personal thought...if you are playing bluegrass regularly, if you have the relief and action set too low
you will get a lot of "slap" or buzzing, and the sound will not be clean...better to have a little higher than not.

On the other hand, if doing fingerstyle, I would say you want as low as you can get without buzz.

"Rule Of Thumb," and don't ask me where I got it from, but your neck-relief should be set at about what your high
E gauge is. "Action" is different from neck relief, and do not use your truss rod to set the "action."

All that said, have fun!

Postscript: I didn't know TE used medium gauge strings! Wow!

IMHO, wrong on the string being what relief should be. Maybe the maximum acceptable, but my Martin has .004 relief with .013s. There is no action for different types of guitars, it is just that dreads have a high percentage of hard flatpickers, which is why Martin sets dreads up with .013s and higher action. It is easy to have your Martin dealer lower your action. Raising it needs a new saddle.

You would be wise never to use the phrase " as low as it will go without buzzing" when you talk to a tech. Better just to say I like low action, do what you feel is best. Or I have arthritic hands, so take that into consideration. Or I have a light touch.
 

Wellington

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From fret to bottom of bass E string on both my dreads at 12th is about 1.75mm (which is about 0.07 inches, as a fraction i have no idea), it's a fairly happy medium for me, though I do get the fret rattle if I strum firm, but I normally finger pick more often or strum softer, though lately I've been strumming more, thinking of using another saddle for a slightly higher action, we'll see.
 

Wilmywood

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From fret to bottom of bass E string on both my dreads at 12th is about 1.75mm (which is about 0.07 inches, as a fraction i have no idea), it's a fairly happy medium for me, though I do get the fret rattle if I strum firm, but I normally finger pick more often or strum softer, though lately I've been strumming more, thinking of using another saddle for a slightly higher action, we'll see.
1.75mm is just a hair over 1/16"
 

Wellington

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1.75mm is just a hair over 1/16"
As soon as I read that I knew I was mistaken, I used my string guage ruler but it was in the dim lit evening, I reread it and it's pretty well bang on 2.25mm on my LL16 and 2mm on my Guild.
 

Wilmywood

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As soon as I read that I knew I was mistaken, I used my string guage ruler but it was in the dim lit evening, I reread it and it's pretty well bang on 2.25mm on my LL16 and 2mm on my Guild.
3/32 and 5/64
 
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