Interesting read, although not much mention or Guild.
AGM on Guitar Sizes
AGM on Guitar Sizes
Guitar Sizes
- Thread starter Brad Little
- Start date
West R Lee
Venerated Member
Cool article. If you go down to comments on the article, there is a link to James Taylor's style. Loved it.
West
West
plaidseason
Senior Member
I love this stuff!
Someone more ambitious than I should draw a colored outline of the M20/M120/F20/M40/M240 between the 0 and 00.
Someone more ambitious than I should draw a colored outline of the M20/M120/F20/M40/M240 between the 0 and 00.
WaltW
Member
I've seen this recently, somewhere, and following the colored lines is difficult at best for my old eyes. An interactive page would be best.......click the designation 0, 00, 0M etc and the outline becomes solid or all others disappear.
Much more work for the webmaster especially since it would be free like what is currently available.
And don't bother for Guild... Pointless. 
I notice George Gruhn was consulted for the article.
I notice George Gruhn was consulted for the article.
plaidseason
Senior Member
At least George would've known that the F40 is a 16" lower bout mini-jumbo.And don't bother for Guild... Pointless.
I notice George Gruhn was consulted for the article.
Uh oh. Them's is fighting words (if you happen to work for Oxnard).
Br1ck
Senior Member
Even within body shapes there is quite the variety of tone. I'm firmly in the dread camp, but my 70 D35 has proven that I like a balanced tone for the most part, and clarity. My Santa Cruz manages clarity with a fatter voice. It manages to pretty much do it all, while still being a mahogany/sitka guitar. It may very well be due to a bit less depth clamping down on the bass. Even my Martin D 35 Custom is not typical of a D 35. It's a very dry, for a rosewood Martin, guitar. All this is in the realm of a dread shape, which no smaller shape can produce. So how confusing is the fact every company feels the need to not be Martin clones? Even Martin. The best thing to do, it seems to me is just find guitars to play, I find the internet to be information, much of it conflicting, overload. But I'm coming from an area where I can get my hands on most any guitar I want to play. That, and owning a few guitars, has led me to my own conclusions.
plaidseason
Senior Member
My M40 is remarkably different from my M240. If you put them in stands next to each other, lots of folks might mistake them for the same(ish) guitar. Same size. Same scale length. Scalloped bracing. Similar sunburst. Guild logo.
That's why the "how many guitars do you really need?" thing is hard to answer.
adorshki
Reverential Member
When Gruhn came on board the F20 and the F30 got lost. Much like Cordoba having no "slot" in their model number system for a 16" Grand Auditorium (F40), George never did give us a hint as to what he'd be calling F20's and F30's after he was done with F and JF.And don't bother for Guild... Pointless.
I notice George Gruhn was consulted for the article.
Assuming he intended to do something with 'em.
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Bill Ashton
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Actually they do mention the Guild A-20 "Marley" (Gaaack!), though I don't know why they bothered...
banjomike
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For sure, George has his personal preferences- strong ones, too.When Gruhn came on board the F20 and the F30 got lost. Much like Cordoba having no "slot" in their model number system for a 16" Grand Auditorium (F40), George never did give us a hint as to what he'd be calling F20's and F30's after he was done with F, J, and JF.
Assuming he intended to do something with 'em.
They influence everything he's ever collected, ordered or designed.be George likes larger sized guitars. He is particularly fond of Gibson, and the early L-5 archtops, the ones that are 16" guitars, have long been his favorite Gibson model.
But when it came to the squared-off Dreadnought style, George thought Martins ruled over all the others like it.
He was one of the very first serious guitar collectors and one of the first of them who were true geeks and seriously studied the guitars they loved the most.
His preferences really show up in the models he designed for Guild. This was George's first time he was ever allowed to design a full series of guitars that all had the features he liked the most.
Earlier, he had been a partner in the GTR guitar co., a very small company that was formed by George, Tut Taylor, and Randy Wood. Both Tut and Randy actually built good acoustic instruments; Tut was a mandolin player and Randy made guitars. All 3 had strong ideas that must have conflicted from time to time during the GTR's short history as a company.
But when he bought a piece of the Guild company, George had no constraints at all. So he made his old faves and pretty much ignored Guild's traditions, which were pretty well established by then.
I wasn't surprised that the D-60 failed to replace the D-55's popularity; while it's a very good sounding Dreadnought, the visuals of the D-60 are simply too different from the 55, and the D-55 was the Guild dreadnought that put Guild on the map- the guitar most of the Guild buyers aspired to buy one day. That the F-60 was a 16" Jumbo style didn't surprise me either.
But has anyone ever see an S-60 for real? The Studio guitar that had all the features Gruhn thought would be the makings of a superior recording guitar? That one deserves its own topic on the forum. To me, the S-60 is the Edsel of the guitar world- there has to be a few of them out there, somewhere, but to me, it's evidence of his personal preferences running amuck.
Visuals are extremely important to guitar sales. Any potential buyer has to like the way a guitar looks first, or a buyer will just leave the guitar hanging on the music store wall and won't ever try it out.
Our eyes are a keener sense than our ears. So if a player likes the looks of a guitar a lot, they almost always assume it will sound as good as it looks. So much so that the sound of a good-looking guitar has to be pretty terrible to change that innate belief.
That too deserves a topic of its own.
adorshki
Reverential Member
As far as I can tell, S60 started out as Studio 24, basically a flattop Starfire outline (I suspect it begat the "Prestige" series which in turn were replaced with the
'86 catalog unavailable tome but WeserlyGuildGuitars.com has a copy of an '86 catalog page:
http://westerlyguildguitars.com/guitars/studio24.html
May '86 price list:
'87 catalog with pic labeled S-60:
As far as I'm seeing specs were same as Studio 24 as pictured in Hans' book, but I think this graph hsows why they changed it to "S-60" under Gruhn's new system, because it has the same appointments as the D60 and GF60.
We've got a Studio 24 owner here, (actually think at least 2) Think Grot has one. To your point, though, if that's the one you're thinking of, I don't recall ever seeing one presented as an S-60, so you could be right. Further confusing the issue was the use of the S60 model number previously for a solid electric, where the "S" designation was traditionally used.
Wouldn't surprise me if somebody looked at that and said: Y'know, just 'cause we announced it doesn't mean we have to build them. Especially if we don't get any orders." And George may well have bailed by then IIRC he sold his interest during'87, said to have claimed he just didn't dig corporate politics.
By '90 the the F45ce was the only model left showing the oval soundhole and 24 fret neck (Studio 24) and the Prestige series was the longscale counterpart. That was shortlived and the FxxCe series was expanded by '92, with a new venetian cutaway.:
Kim Walker has mentioned carrying out some of George's design ideas after he was gone, and suspect that
"F-series" was the last hurrah. By end of '94 they'd gone logscale and then Fender stepped in at end of '95.
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I have a video of our own @Christopher Cozad playing a S60/Studio 24 when @ladytexan cajoled our way into the upstairs at George's old store when it was still on Main Street.
I've heard a few stories of how grouchy George can be, I thought he was charming as he brought out one rare Guild after another, and then even played one of his custom Martin DS21s for us.
Like the rest of you , I have never seen any reference to an S-60. I do have one of the few Studio 24's that I have seen in what amounted to a pretty extensive search of the net in the years leading up to my lucking into it in 2013. After receiving it, I had a dual K&K system installed ( Pure mini transducers + Double Helix soundhole - both are passive).
Some years later, in 2017, I contacted Kim Walker via e-mail about the Studio 24 I have (with pictures of the guitar), and I mentioned some of the "facts' I'd heard regarding how many had been produced - 30 being the figure that is bandied around most. Mine is #12.
I probably posted Kim's reply in an older post here, but here is what he said when he wrote back to me (Some of the statements he makes seem to support some of banjo Mike's information about George and the design and production of this model which was a special order at the time):
Hi Bob,
I tagged this note meaning to get back to you about how cool I think this is!
Yes, I refined the design and made the original prototype which George Gruhn still has. It was George's idea to make a 335-ish flattop and I made it reality.
The sides are the shape of the Guild Starfire. The headstock shape is inspired by the early Gibson L-5's, George's favorite.
Your Studio 24 is very likely more rare than the 30 serial numbers would indicate. There were problems in manufacturing and some of those never made it out of the factory. So, cool!
Were you there with us that day Bob? George has the same exact outfit on!
No, Sandy, That's just a picture of George with the prototype S-24 Kim referred to. I added it to my file containing any info on the guitar that I've accumulated. Most likely it is from pictures posted on LTG back when all of you made that visit.
banjomike
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I think the Studios are actually a useful guitar for the session aces like Grady Martin, the guy who added all the Spanish-sounding fills and ruffles to Marty Robin's "Gunfighter Ballads" albums. They would also be good for the touring solo musicians who are primarily instrumentalists.
But those players are a tiny market. I think this was a case of "If we build it, they will come." that was a little too extreme. The folks who play acoustics tend be conservative and do go for radical-looking instruments very much. Really, the playing advantages of a double cutaway over a single cutaway aren't very large on an acoustic with a full depth body.
The Studio 24 looks like it would the better-sounding one. Cutaways tend to kill the sonic contributions of the upper bout when they're as tight as the Starfire's, (obviously the pattern used for the S-60) but the Studio 24's cutaaways are wider, so the give the wood of the upper bout more room to vibrate and move around.
But those players are a tiny market. I think this was a case of "If we build it, they will come." that was a little too extreme. The folks who play acoustics tend be conservative and do go for radical-looking instruments very much. Really, the playing advantages of a double cutaway over a single cutaway aren't very large on an acoustic with a full depth body.
The Studio 24 looks like it would the better-sounding one. Cutaways tend to kill the sonic contributions of the upper bout when they're as tight as the Starfire's, (obviously the pattern used for the S-60) but the Studio 24's cutaaways are wider, so the give the wood of the upper bout more room to vibrate and move around.