NGD: 1970 D-25 cherry

[E-Type]

Seems to bear out the idea that builds began to get progressively heavier in Westerly in the mid '70's.

It's been proposed that the archbacks are by nature heavier than the flatbacks (in late Westerly Guild lit, even) but I can't believe it's due to the back. For one thing, there's no bracing. Also, laminates are engineered specifically to yield greater strength with less mass. And I can't believe the laminating glue is very heavy, either. After, all it's only microns thick between the layers, which are normally 3, the center sheet being a light wood like larch or poplar, IIRC.

So I think they beefed up sides and top and bracing, but I'd bet the backs are't any heavier than the flatback, only thick enough to support the rest of the build. Also a change from open to closed tuners can add a couple oz's IIRC.

Hoboken and early Westerly ('68-'71 or so) are reputed to be very light resonant builds. It's been postulated that the builds got heavier due to the boom in flattop sales of the period, resulting in higher-than-anticipated warranty claims. Which to be fair certainly had a good percentage of failures due to owner ignorance of proper care.

In any case it's been suggested the fix was to beef up the builds.

Both of mine left the factory with the same tuners. I have read that the plywood was poplar and they veneered it with mahogany. Perhaps poplar is heavier than mahogany? I’m not sure how much glue soaks in to the layers, but to the extent the weight is water, that evaporates out. My assumption is that it’s a larger neck block and extra bracing that adds up to much of the weight difference.

I’d love to see a comparison between the structure of, say, a 1967, 1977, and 2023 D-40. The new ones are light like mine, but does that mean they cracked the structural code? Or will the newer ones need resets like the ‘60s models?

 

[E-Type]

I spent about 2 hours last night switching between the '70 and the '74. With the same strings on both (yes, 10-47s), I can say that the flat back-mahogany top of the '70 is brighter sounding than the archbacked '74. Surprisingly, to me holding the guitar, they both sound pretty similarly loud.

The '70 feels more in-my-face with sound just radiating from the top and sound hole. With the '74, the sound really does seem more focused and pointed away from the guitar. I wonder how people across the room in front of you vs off to the side would hear the two guitars differently? Also though, I have never quite understood the "piano-like" term people use, until now. The sound coming from the archback '74 really does have a quality where it seems like it is emanating from a speaker cab or a piano. It is a little richer tone, like if the body was 10" deep instead of 5". In any case, the tonal differences are nothing like what I expected after reading dozens (100s?) of D-25 threads.

 

[adorshki]

Both of mine left the factory with the same tuners. I have read that the plywood was poplar and they veneered it with mahogany. Perhaps poplar is heavier than mahogany?

Nope, neither is larch:
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/wood-density-d_40.html
Also the glue was hideglue. The sheets were glued up and then pressed in a steam press (still in use in Oxnard). You can imagine how tight that was.

I’m not sure how much glue soaks in to the layers, but to the extent the weight is water, that evaporates out.

Hide glue doesn't "soak in", it's got relatively low water content and depends on heat and added moisture to remain liquid. It crystallizes on curing.

My assumption is that it’s a larger neck block and extra bracing that adds up to much of the weight difference.

Good point, forgot about reports of beefier neckblocks, but yes, exactly the type of detail I was thinking of.

I’d love to see a comparison between the structure of, say, a 1967, 1977, and 2023 D-40. The new ones are light like mine, but does that mean they cracked the structural code? Or will the newer ones need resets like the ‘60s models?

Fender conducted a project to formalize the designs after buying 'em, described here:

https://www.vintageguitar.com/21567/guild-in-the-post-fender-era/

 

[Br1ck]

Care and feeding awareness was next to nil in those days. Just car transport alone killed guitars. At least some A/C gets to the back of an SUV. Helpful tip, you can wrap your guitar case in a freezer blanket on hot days. I keep one in my car. Think a much better insulated moving blanket. Cheap insurance from sun coming through the window on a road trip.

 

[E-Type]

Nope, neither is larch:
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/wood-density-d_40.html
Also the glue was hideglue. The sheets were glued up and then pressed in a steam press (still in use in Oxnard). You can imagine how tight that was.


Hide glue doesn't "soak in", it's got relatively low water content and depends on heat and added moisture to remain liquid. It crystallizes on curing.

Good point, forgot about reports of beefier neckblocks, but yes, exactly the type of detail I was thinking of.

Fender conducted a project to formalize the designs after buying 'em, described here:

https://www.vintageguitar.com/21567/guild-in-the-post-fender-era/

Great article. And I had no idea they made their own plywood for the arched backs. Very cool.

 

[adorshki]

Great article. And I had no idea they made their own plywood for the arched backs. Very cool.

The outer sheets were obtained from a furniture veneer maker. Because it was sheeted from a flitch and and delivered in the sheeting sequence, any 2 consecutive sheets would have nearly identical grain pattern. Guild even made it a practice to orient the grain identically on the inside and outside of the backs, which has actually caused a few folks to believe they're actually solid.

Also, not to come off "pedantic" but there really Is a difference between "laminate" and "plywood", even though plywood is a form of laminate. But it rightfully implies use of a very cheap material not well-suited for use on its own merits (knotholes, bearclaw, inconsistent grain, cracks, etc) but perfectly acceptable for use in making a durable construction material for use where aesthetics aren't a definitive requirement.

"Laminate" generally implies an engineered material of high-quality components, as in the furniture-grade veneer used for the archbacks.
But I get it when folks say "plywood backs" just for fun.

 

[E-Type]

The outer sheets were obtained from a furniture veneer maker. Because it was sheeted from a flitch and and delivered in the sheeting sequence, any 2 consecutive sheets would have nearly identical grain pattern. Guild even made it a practice to orient the grain identically on the inside and outside of the backs, which has actually caused a few folks to believe they're actually solid.

Also, not to come off "pedantic" but there really Is a difference between "laminate" and "plywood", even though plywood is a form of laminate. But it rightfully implies use of a very cheap material not well-suited for use on its own merits (knotholes, bearclaw, inconsistent grain, cracks, etc) but perfectly acceptable for use in making a durable construction material for use where aesthetics aren't a definitive requirement.

"Laminate" generally implies an engineered material of high-quality components, as in the furniture-grade veneer used for the archbacks.
But I get it when folks say "plywood backs" just for fun.

When I think of plywood, I think of Baltic birch and the Eameses. No disrespect intended. I just think of “laminate” as a euphemism. Also, “laminate” makes me think of Formica. Also, I am a professor, so pedantic is my middle name!

 

[E-Type]

saddle was tall when I got it back. can't speak to its journey between then and now

I just had my guy (Spencer at Jimmy Wallis Guitars in Garland TX) give it a set up. He found the relief was a 0.012". With a new, 1/32" taller, saddle, he was able to lower the relief to 0.007" and still keep the action at 5/64". At least, whatever journey the guitar took, it was easily adjusted. His best guess was that someone lowered the saddle a bit more than they intended and then used relief to adjust it. I'm not sure I can really tell much of a difference, but it makes me feel better knowing the strings are 3/8" above the top. I am loving this thing, for sure!

Oh, and the shop still has a 1970 D-25BR for sale ($1,795 and needs a reset). The bridge on that one is actually a little shorter than mine.