Guild dread bracing #2

In response to a question about bracing of Guild dreads in another thread, I tried to describe the two variants of upper bout bracing in the 8 Guild dreads I have owned (7 current, and one sold). Since the explanation was a little confusing, and I won't try and take pics until I next change strings, I drew a little schematic showing frontal (top) and side views (only the soundboard, neckblock, and braces in question are shown) to make things more clear (diagrams are not to scale):


(revised diagram after seeing telenators pic of his D-25 top)

Below each diagram is the list of guitars with this bracing pattern. Based on the observation that two D-35s ('72 and '78) had different patterns, I would conclude the change was chronological. Based on the difference between the '74 G-37 and '74 D-25, I'd say the change occurred in mid '74. However... these conclusions are based on limiited data... and the design changes in different models might have occurred earlier or later as individual batches were completed.

Am I close, Hans?
Dave

GardMan said:

In response to a question about bracing of Guild dreads in another thread, I tried to describe the two variants of upper bout bracing in the 8 Guild dreads I have owned (7 current, and one sold). Since the explanation was a little confusing, and I won't try and take pics until I next change strings, I drew a little schematic showing frontal (top) and side views (only the soundboard, neckblock, and braces in question are shown) to make things more clear (diagrams are not to scale):

Below each diagram is the list of guitars with this bracing pattern. Based on the observation that two D-35s ('72 and '78) had different patterns, I would conclude the change was chronological. Based on the difference between the '74 G-37 and '74 D-25, I'd say the change occurred in mid '74. However... these conclusions are based on limiited data... and the design changes in different models might have occurred earlier or later as individual batches were completed.

Am I close, Hans?
Dave

Click to expand...

Thanks for sharing this Dave. I just looked inside my '75 F50R and my '93 F20, and saw a similar scheme to your diagram on the right. Just smaller, of course. I'll have to check my '73 D50 when it comes back from Nashville. It should have the earlier design.

Very cool information, thanks!

I would add that the '74 D-25 has the block brace variant (right diagram), but the block itself isn't rounded as in the others... it's angular (in cross section, like a square with a corner cut off). Don't know if this is a chronological difference, or a model difference (as much as we all like our D-25s, they were the low-end "entry" model)...

Added: I'd be really curious to know if the DV models use the "popsicle" brace scheme seen in my older dreads...

Here's the top I hacked off my Guild D15M.


Here's a look inside the body.


Here's the scalloped bracing I did when re-topping the guitar. Same pattern as the original, but the top was tuned to middle C.

Telenator said:

Here's the top I hacked off my Guild D15M.

Click to expand...

That's different than any of mine... but my "youngest" is a '92, and your D-15s top appears to be a '94.

Revision: After seeing your top, I went back and found that all my "block-style" braced dreads have the two little wing braces extending from the 1st brace to the edge of the upper bout, just like yours. But yours lacked the big block that all mine have from late '74 to '92?

D-a-a-n-g! THANKS Gardman. I'm positive my '96 D25 does not have the block brace but in truth I forgot to check for the popsicle stick last night. I noticed that other variant on the D15 which might be of similar vintage to mine. I'll report tomorrow.

After seeing telenators top pic, I went back and looked, and sure enough, all my dreads with the block style bracing (right diagrams) have the two little "wing" braces from the first cross brace to the edge of the upper bout. Here is the modified drawing (I hope):



Guess I didn't turn the mirror enough to see them (sort of awkward when the strings are on). Also, for the same reason, I don't know that the block brace actually extends all the way to the 1st brace... its hard to get an angle to look back that direction.

Finally, the diagram is only showing the region from the neck block to the 1st brace. Telenators D-25 top shows a "plate-like" reinforcement around the soundhole... only my '92 D-55 has such a reinforcing plate. All my others have thin strip braces that extend diagonally from the first brace to the X-braces on either side of the soundhole (these braces are a common site for the top's date stamp).

What a great thread. Thanks guys........very informative.

West

I've said it before and I'll say it again: this is the exact kind of geeky thread that keeps me coming to LTG.

As for my late nineties DV4, it matches diagram No. 2 (and Telenator's D15), including the square soundhole overlay.


-Chris

Nice work, Gard'! Thanks for sharing.

~nw

My D15M is/was a 1984 model. I bought it brand new.

Yes, the block does extend all the way to the first brace.

I am so much happier with the sitka spruce top. It has a lot more sparkle than the mahogany top had. I attribute some of this to the scalloped bracing and tuning the top.

The guitar sounded really great before someone sanded the top too heavily and completely botched the finish. It still sounds good but now it has a lack of clarity on the open A chord and a few other spots. Next time I'll botch the finish myself than you!

Now if only I had more demand for playing acoustic. Sadly I don't play it much.

Telenator said:

My D15M is/was a 1984 model. I bought it brand new.

Click to expand...

OK... I couldn't quite read the stamped date on your top in your pic... whether it was '84 or '94.

Yes, the block does extend all the way to the first brace.

Click to expand...

I thought it might, based on what I could see with a mirror. So yours did have the block? Hard to see it in the angle of you pics, or was it removed by then?

I am so much happier with the sitka spruce top. It has a lot more sparkle than the mahogany top had. I attribute some of this to the scalloped bracing and tuning the top.

Click to expand...

I'd like to play a mahogany-topped dread (actually, both arched and flat back) again... I chose my '72 D-35 over a flat-backed all mahogany D-25 back in '73. I know there was a difference, but it has been too long. They're both on my short list to add to my little "collection" (along with a maple D-44), but I probably won't be buying for quite some time (or so I tell me wife)...

I first noticed the different upper bout bracing pattern when trying to figure out why my wife's '78 D-35 weighed so much more than my '72 D-35... a difference of over a pound (my D-35 is my lightest dread, at only 4.25 lbs).

adorshki said:

D-a-a-n-g! THANKS Gardman. I'm positive my '96 D25 does not have the block brace but in truth I forgot to check for the popsicle stick last night. I noticed that other variant on the D15 which might be of similar vintage to mine. I'll report tomorrow.

Click to expand...

Well guess what, the '96 D25 has the wing braces and the block, rounded, doesn't touch the first brace, probably about a quarter 1/4" of clearance, and it's so shallow you can't see it behind the brace, which is why I never noticed it .
D40 construction , '03 Corona, is identical.

GardMan said:

I would add that the '74 D-25 has the block brace variant (right diagram), but the block itself isn't rounded as in the others... it's angular (in cross section, like a square with a corner cut off). Don't know if this is a chronological difference, or a model difference (as much as we all like our D-25s, they were the low-end "entry" model)...

...

Click to expand...

Gard', my '75 D25 has the squared off block brace that you describe.

~nw

GardMan said:

Telenator said:

My D15M is/was a 1984 model. I bought it brand new.

Click to expand...

OK... I couldn't quite read the stamped date on your top in your pic... whether it was '84 or '94.

Yes, the block does extend all the way to the first brace.

Click to expand...

I thought it might, based on what I could see with a mirror. So yours did have the block? Hard to see it in the angle of you pics, or was it removed by then?

[quote:44rlggd6]I am so much happier with the sitka spruce top. It has a lot more sparkle than the mahogany top had. I attribute some of this to the scalloped bracing and tuning the top.

Click to expand...

I'd like to play a mahogany-topped dread (actually, both arched and flat back) again... I chose my '72 D-35 over a flat-backed all mahogany D-25 back in '73. I know there was a difference, but it has been too long. They're both on my short list to add to my little "collection" (along with a maple D-44), but I probably won't be buying for quite some time (or so I tell me wife)...

I first noticed the different upper bout bracing pattern when trying to figure out why my wife's '78 D-35 weighed so much more than my '72 D-35... a difference of over a pound (my D-35 is my lightest dread, at only 4.25 lbs).[/quote:44rlggd6]

It's a little hard to tell from the photo but the block does indeed extend to the first brace. When I set the top, the block was resting right up against the first brace. In the photo, the extended block looks like it's the inside face of the block when actually, that's the top of the extension you're seeing. You have to look closely.

I used AAAAA quartersawn sitka spruce on mine. I bought it as a blank with a sound hole and rosette in it from Luthiers Mercantile. The sound is by far superior to the mahogany. More sparkle, the lows are more tightly focused without giving up depth and the harmonic overtones are far more complex than the mahogany top which sounded kind of thuddy by comparison. I would guess that one of the major reasons mahogany is even considered for acoustic guitar tops is because it's one of the few remaining woods that yield an abundance of boards wide enough for acoustic tops. Anyone looking at Adirondack Spruce these days is an increase in grain and color variations because it's becoming increasingly difficult to find wood wide enough for guitar tops.

It's a fairly heavy guitar as many Guild acoustics are. I think the mahogany top may have sounded a little better when amplified as the lack of complex harmonics seemed to take off the brittle edge often associated with amplified acoustics.

Here's the scalloped bracing I did when re-topping the guitar. Same pattern as the original, but the top was tuned to middle C.
[/quote]

Not trying to veer too far off the thread, but how do you "tune" the top? If you know of any links regarding this please post.

~Jon

There are several methods of doing this. Just type in "Tap Tuning" in a Google search and you'll come up with several different methods.

Basically, once you've braced the top and scalloped the braces a bit, you set up a very high quality tuner in a very quiet room and you tap the sound board. The note will register on the tuner.

My top was a bit sharp of middle C in several places when I tapped it. Shaving the braces a little bit at a time lowers the pitch. So I tapped the top in several places and shaved the braces there bringing the pitch down to middle C.

When a guitar top is tuned uniformly the guitar produces a warmer, more balanced sound. My D15M sounded killer until a ham-fisted person wrecked the balance by sanding the top during the finishing process. It's not horrible, but it ain't as nice as it used to be!

Telenator said:

When a guitar top is tuned uniformly the guitar produces a warmer, more balanced sound. My D15M sounded killer until a ham-fisted person wrecked the balance by sanding the top during the finishing process. It's not horrible, but it ain't as nice as it used to be!

Click to expand...

Why do I have this sneaking suspicion you're going to add "finishing" to your list of capabilities? 8) :lol:

adorshki said:

Telenator said:

When a guitar top is tuned uniformly the guitar produces a warmer, more balanced sound. My D15M sounded killer until a ham-fisted person wrecked the balance by sanding the top during the finishing process. It's not horrible, but it ain't as nice as it used to be!

Click to expand...

Why do I have this sneaking suspicion you're going to add "finishing" to your list of capabilities? 8) :lol:

Click to expand...

Ha! I wish! Over the years I have tried several times to do finishes and screwed them all up. It's just something best left to the pros because I can't seen to get my head around it. Although I could have just as easily screwed up this guitar as the guy who did the finish. I'm often shocked at the crap quality of work people put out there.