F-412 players! Aftermarket pickup/pre-amp recommendations?

iWood

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I'm seeking some well-considered advice from people who play the 12-string, as opposed to people who play the 6-string and also have a 12-string, if that makes sense. I hope it does, because I'm going to keep writing.

I've got a 2009 New Hartford F-412, with a Fishman Rare Earth Blend in it. I had a solid plan to replace that with a Matrix Infinity. Reasoning: I'm also using the Aura Spectrum DI, and although Fishman says that it'll work fine with a magnetic pickup like the REB...well, it doesn't, not really. I mean, it's not horrible, but my ears can tell that the Aura prefers the Matrix. That is, after all, what they used to record the images that the Aura technology uses. I also got tired of having my string choices limited by the magnetic pickup, and my soundboard ever-so-slightly deadened by the soundhole clamps.

But my solid plan became less so when I heard some good, untweaked audio of some K&K pickup systems (Pure, Trinity, etc.). I thought to myself, "Self! Does this mean that you might be able to get The Sound without using outboard modeling algorithms?" I was also attracted to the notion of minimal hardware onboard the guitar, and pairing the K&K with a D-Tar Solstice looked like it could meet my particular signal chain needs. (Side note: the K&K Quantum is a nonstarter due to its form factor and feature set.)

(Other side note: I did consider the LR Baggs Anthem early on, but there were a few things that knocked it out of the running for me after I heard and saw the K&K options.)

Then there's the aftermarket D-TAR Multi-source. It's on the list because it's the stock pickup for the Guild 12s, so if it's anybody's most perfect bestest favorite in a 12-string, let me hear about it.* I haven't yet called around locally to see if there's a D-TARred 412/512 for me to noodle on, nor have I been able to find any decent audio of it.

In fact, that's kind of a general problem, here: all of the audio I've heard for any of these setups is played on a 6-string. Even - I'm almost entirely sure - the audio on K&K's site for their Pure 12-string pickup! Or, if it's not a 6-string, whoever's playing seems to be allergic to octaves.

So! With all of *that* out of the way, here is my actual question: who's used these setups on their F-412 (or 512)? Any experiences to share about installation & performance? Or are there, perhaps, recommendations for other aftermarket pickups? I'm not wedded to continued use of the Aura DI, if I can get something that can do a better job without resorting to the dark arts of software modeling. And I do like the *idea* of the various K&K options...freeing up my soundboard, no need to have electronic fiddly bits stuck everywhere. You know: neat, minimalist, but with sound-shaping options. That said, I'd like to hear from someone who's got (or who's tried) the Pure 12-string pups, on its own or as part of a combination system.

Right now my requirements are primarily fidelity of tone: solo performer, fingerstyle + bouts of furious strumming, and in the studio I frequently put the guitar through some outboard effects. Eventually it'll be used with my older-model Acoustasonic Jr. amp.

All right, that's more than enough of my blather. Thanks very much for reading.

*Forum search is currently giving weird database errors...but my eyeballs show me a D-TAR thread right below this.
 
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Bill Ashton

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DTAR Multi-Source. Only have tried/heard it on a D55. Perfect, or very nearly. At LMG IV, only an outboard SM57 sounded better to my ears. Page DapmDave, he has/is getting a 12 with one...
 

iWood

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A vote for the D-TAR (and as it turns out, Duncan | Turner Acoustic Research is located four miles from my house...so they might have a leg up by virtue of sheer proximity). Thanks!
 

iWood

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(In fact, I might have to call DTAR just to see about hearing one...I know there aren't any in town. Guitar Center - there's one down the coast a way - doesn't even list Guild on their site anymore. What's up with *that?*)
 
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Christopher Cozad

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Great post.

Disclaimer(s): I have played a Guild 12 string as a professional since 1976. Currently I do not have a K&K system installed on any of my 12 string guitars, but rather Baggs Anthem or Lyric pickups. Wherever possible I prefer to mic my acoustic guitars.

I have used the Spectrum and Solstice DI's in conjunction with nearly every pickup combination available over the last 4 decades (and most every other preamp on the market). Note that this does not make me any sort of expert, but I definitely have an informed opinion.

My short answer: Yes, the Matrix Infinity would be closer to the sound you are after over the Rare Earth Blend (However, if you really like the EBow or are seriously into slap techniques you may want to keep the magnetic pickup around, as it can be useful).

(Uninvited long answer, in response to:

...fidelity of tone: solo performer, fingerstyle + bouts of furious strumming, and in the studio I frequently put the guitar through some outboard effects...
)

35 to 40 years ago, unless you had a sound man in charge of some fairly sophisticated equipment, if you wanted to amplify an acoustic guitar to sufficient volumes to satisfy "l'audience du jour" you would install either a (notoriously "quacky sounding") piezo pickup under the saddle or a (notoriously "electric sounding") magnetic soundhole pickup. This was especially true if you intended to use an outboard effect (pedal) such as a chorus, phaser or flanger. Attempting to mic a guitar when using effects (looping of the audio signal and the resultant feedback) would often quickly alter the mood of an audience toward the negative. There were few portable, affordable pre-amps available then. In an effort to be heard over the other guys, I may have unwittingly participated in reshaping the public definition of the sound (and essential volume) of an amplified guitar (material for another discussion).

What happened to the microphone? I vividly remember a particular evening in 1979 in Beaverton, Oregon and my battle with a 1977 Mossman Timber Creek, Shure SM57 and StudioMaster Mixer. I worked diligently to mic that guitar without howling feedback and was most unsuccessful that night. It was a turning point for me where acoustic amplification was concerned. While I also had used Barcus Berry piezos and Bill Lawrence magnetic soundhole pickups with MXR 10-band equalizers, I promptly installed L.R. Baggs LB6 pickups (UST's) in all my guitars. Feedback problem solved! And, in my opinion, sound quality utterly compromised!

Over the years I experimented (constantly) with pickups, microphones, and equalization (BTW, I still have that same SM57 from the '70's, along with the Mutron II Phase Shifter that could dismiss the audience due to mic feedback when I would attempt to play Dave Loggins' "Please Come To Boston"). I learned (and spent) so much, and now admit readily that the convenient acoustic amplification solution is any number of onboard pickup systems. Outboard pre-amps help to (slightly) shape the overall sound and can help to overcome the (still annoyingly obvious) sound of the pickup itself. That said, as I mentioned before, I now have L.R. Baggs Anthems or Lyrics installed in all my performing guitars, as they are (essentially) microphones (the Anthem also includes a UST). If needed or warranted, I can plug directly in to a house P.A. without fear and get close to the sound I am after, and typically achieve the sound an audience is accustomed to. I can take it further and, with (surreptitious - hehe) use of an outboard pre-amp, can pretty much get the pickup out of the way completely.

However, today I prefer to amplify my acoustic guitars with a microphone wherever possible. My mic of choice is currently an Ear Trumpet Labs model Edwina. It is a high-end, large diaphragm, 48-volt condenser that I plug into my Bose L1 Model II via the ToneMatch Engine (Bose Mixer). I use the "Flat" EQ setting, and set the Para EQ to hunt any stray frequency that might be feedback-prone. The Bose is remarkable at reproducing acoustic sources anyway, so I can sit 6 feet in front of my "PA" with an acoustic guitar mic'd through a condenser at large hall volumes, without feedback. In a word, 'Amazing'! In three words (thank you iWood), 'Fidelity of Tone'!

I also have an acoustic guitar amp, a Dean Markley Ultrasound DS4. Of course I can plug my guitars directly into the amp, and they sound fine. But they sound great when I mic them. When so doing, I have to be much more careful regarding position and placement, but it is all about the sound, and it is totally do-able. Over many years I have learned that it not only possible to mic my guitars and recreate the most acoustically-pure amplified sound imaginable, but quite practical and preferred by my listeners. And I don't need a sound man. {smile}

That 12 string of yours is a stringed glockenspiel, destined for greatness! When you strum it, it is giving you all it's got and you are hoping to help convey that incredible tone and sound to the masses with little to no compromise. Welcome to the journey, and have fun!
 
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dapmdave

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DTAR Multi-Source. Only have tried/heard it on a D55. Perfect, or very nearly. At LMG IV, only an outboard SM57 sounded better to my ears. Page DapmDave, he has/is getting a 12 with one...

Not yet! As I write this my F-512 (with DTAR) is still up in New Hartford. Details to follow at NGD.

But, I'm with Bill. The DTAR-equipped Guilds played at LMG IV were awesome. I was sold.
 

idealassets

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Chris,
That is quite a history in guitar sound amplification. I consider that I am fortunate to have started out with a DTAR Wavelength in my 2010 F512. I do not care to use any sound modeling or enhancement, and returned one for around $360 back to Sweetwater. Its the one that we all know about, but I have forgotten all about it now.

In my opinion the sound of a Guild F412 or F512 is choice enough that its plenty in its pure form. I have actually been banned from using the F512 at a few open mic's and handed a guitar by the host to use. Don't want the guitar to sound too good I suppose.

I'm eager to hear about the results with the F412, once its all set up.

Craig
 

iWood

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My mic of choice is currently an Ear Trumpet Labs model Edwina.

Man, that is STYLIN'

And that Bose system caught my eye awhile ago, too...that sounds like my dream rig, or close to it. My instinct seems to be "Mic it!" but at the moment I still must bow to certain practical realities...and those, I'm sure, will be different in a year or two.

I suspect my real choice is between the Infinity w/ my Spectrum, or the D-TAR w/ a new Solstice...the former has the virtue of being the cheaper option, the latter has the virtue of being newwwww geaarrrr. If I can manage to put myself in a room with a D-TAR, the decision will probably be easier, one way or the other.
 

charliea

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I have a really good ear (and a really bad attitude, but that's a different topic altogether). I have never heard an amplified guitar sound like anything except an amplified guitar, be it with a pickup or through a mic. All amplification colors the sound. The question becomes, simply, what color do you prefer? My 412 goes through a Schatten passive HFN, which produces a remarkably accurate sound, easily the equal of, if not better than, the D-Tar on my 212XLCE. Both of them, however, transmit a lot of finger pick noise, which I don't like at all. To get rid of it, I use the Aura Spectrum. In fact, I have four pickups for my 12's: The HFN, the D-Tar, a vintage Lawrence soundhole and newer Fishman soundhole, all of which sound excellent through the Spectrum. It's not the natural sound of the instruments, but it's a sound I personally like.

Veering wildly, I'll mention that the American Public has gotten so used to the amplified sound, they probably wouldn't appreciate real acoustic if they heard it. A lot of that is due, of course, to the fact that a whole lot of performing artists need the coloration of electronics to sound worth a nickel in any venue, every really small spaces. Who knows? Maybe a return to actual acoustic music might catch on, at least in selected markets.
 

iWood

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That *is* the thing, isn't it? That's why I dug Christopher's Edwina so much - next to just sitting in front of the guitar, I think a high-quality mic will beat any pickup. And that's also why I just e-mailed D-TAR (they're about 4 miles from me, so why not ask?) to see if they couldn't put me in a local room w/ a D-TAR-equipped 412 to listen to. I've got to hear it. My issue with my Rare Earth Blend/Spectrum setup is just that, preference... it's not bad, but I don't love what it does. A think a large part of that's because the REB isn't the ideal source for the Aura tech to work with (I had the pickup long before I got the box), and my ears hear that. So for practical ($$$) reasons I'm kind of inclined to get a Matrix Infinity, just to give the Aura its best shot with my ears before heading off the greener pastures of New Gear. I'd feel sorta guilty if I bailed on it :)

And yeah, it's probably unlikely that many in the Public would notice or care, but I do. That's coming from a guy who frequently runs his 12 through a bunch of outboard effects, but I want the option to return to something a bit more pure. Goes to confidence, I think...if I don't at least think I sound good, I'm not going to play as if I sound good...and then I won't.

Thanks for the tip on the Schatten, I'll check that out.
 

idealassets

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Yes, that's right.

Chapter 1) On one Monday night the host was a woman on keyboards. This woman had never heard me play my F512 before. I was early on the jam list, and took out my F512 and played solo:

1. Song To The Siren, Tim Buckley
2. Boulder To Birmingham, Emmylou Harris
3. Mr. Tambourine Man, The Byrds
4. Helplessly Hoping, CSN
5. 4+20, CSN

An admirer then came up and wanted a closer look at the F512 on a table just off the stage, so I took it back out of the case to show him while the next musicians were tuning and getting ready to play.

Chapter 2) Then a week later an acoustic guitar lady was hosting. The keyboard lady host from 1 week earlier (both friends) was back on stage to join in on vocals, and also invited herself to play on 1/2 of my conga drum rack. In an impromptu jam situation, I walked to get my F512 out of the case, but the keyboard player lady told the open mic host lady something, and I was told to put the F512 back in the case and go back on playing conga's.

Then it was my turn to open mic on guitar, (and also call the songs for 1/2 hour). I went for my F512 case, and was told by the 2 women to "play this guitar" instead. It was the host lady's acoustic guitar, now with the 2 different host ladies on vocals, and a motley crew of bass and a few more guitars up there with me leading songs on her guitar. The whole jam was controlled by the 2 host ladies, and I was never allowed to get the F512 out of the case to play it for about 4 hours that night.

I haven't played much lately, but have gotten up on a drum set a few times since the "no F512" night happened. I believe that it was duly noted when the bar patron wanted to know all about "that Guild" guitar that Monday night. Most instruments are usually run of the mill average stuff, and no one pays much attention. When someone actually compliments an instrument, I really don't think it is much of a big deal. But putting it all together, I thought it odd that I never got my F512 even part way out of the case, after bringing it all the way down there to play it at open mic.

The End

Craig
 
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dapmdave

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Well, you were much more patient that I would have been in a similar situation.

I'd play my own guitar every time, unless the one being offered was something I'd always wanted to try. But only for a song or two.
 

idealassets

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I experimented with a Fishman Aura Spectrum DI and Guitar Pre Amp unit. I noticed that it had modeling for an F412, but not F512. I didn't think it was worth the money.

I have done my own experimentation with playing amplified in large rooms. On some songs I pick with bare fingers. If its a bluesy sounding song I use finger picks. and don't mind the extra noise.

I have noticed that the best guitarists, including Yorma Kaukonen, and Leo Kottke, etc usually have some fret board noise going on in their recordings. Even if the Fishman Aura improved my sound, I like the Guild and DTAR enough as it is.

Craig
 

iWood

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I experimented with a Fishman Aura Spectrum DI and Guitar Pre Amp unit. I noticed that it had modeling for an F412, but not F512.

Yeah, it's got an F412 and a JF30-12, but no F512. Go figure.

Originally, I got it more for recording in the home studio, because I didn't have much in the way of microphones...when I got some better mics, the deficiencies of the magnetic pup became much more apparent.
 

idealassets

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Yeah, it's got an F412 and a JF30-12, but no F512. Go figure.

Originally, I got it more for recording in the home studio, because I didn't have much in the way of microphones...when I got some better mics, the deficiencies of the magnetic pup became much more apparent.
I am impressed. Since my return to playing in earnest about 3 years ago, I have not paid much attention to recording. I'm still enjoying the live sound. You can really feel both the guitar, vocals, and sound dynamics filling the room.

There is so much good sound equipment and effects available, at no small price, that I am attempting to take it in small steps, or something like that,

Craig
 

idealassets

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Yeah, it's got an F412 and a JF30-12, but no F512. Go figure.

Originally, I got it more for recording in the home studio, because I didn't have much in the way of microphones...when I got some better mics, the deficiencies of the magnetic pup became much more apparent.
Can you run the guitar mic chord through the Fishman Aura?
 

iWood

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I am impressed. Since my return to playing in earnest about 3 years ago, I have not paid much attention to recording. I'm still enjoying the live sound. You can really feel both the guitar, vocals, and sound dynamics filling the room.

Heh. Don't be. I can't tell you how many times I've realized that I've gotten sucked into the technology at the expense of continuing to improve my playing. Though it can work the other way, too. Right now I am extremely motivated to improve my left-hand technique and minimize finger squeak, because my new-to-me better mics are completely unforgiving.

There is so much good sound equipment and effects available, at no small price, that I am attempting to take it in small steps, or something like that

That's wise. Although, if you're just starting out, the cost for entry into the home recording arena, and the quality of what you can get, is pretty remarkable these days, especially if you've already got a late model computer or iPad on hand...$250 will get you a basic equipment bundle, and you're good to go. I've found Sound on Sound http://www.soundonsound.com/ to be an excellent resource for getting the lay of the recording land (gear porn), with tons of info on recording technique, history, etc.

I run Digital Performer on a Mac mini that dates back to 2005. It works fine, but what I've discovered, as I step up my recording efforts and learn new things, is that I can't add any of the innovative new software to my setup. Unlike a rack of outboard effects and, say, a tape-based studio, which will continue to perform the same way no matter how old or "obsolete" they are, most of the current technology won't run on my eight-year-old computer. So if my more mature ears don't like the reverb plug-in I'm using because it sounds brittle and digital and awful, I can't just buy one of the far more advanced and warm-sounding reverb plug-ins. Sure, the reverb plug-in costs $129, but in order to run it I need an upgraded OS, and an upgraded machine to run that OS, and suddenly I'm looking at $2000+. Ack! So I muddle through with what I've got. Mostly.


Can you run the guitar mic chord through the Fishman Aura?

You mean take the mic I'm recording with, and plug that in to the Aura? Nope, the Aura's for pickups only. In fact: my Rare Earth Blend uses a magnetic soundhole pickup + a small cardioid mic in the the guitar body, with a little onboard control to mix the signal between the two. If there's any of that cardioid mic in the mix, the Aura's modeling algorithms produce these weird, high-frequency harmonics. Sounds terrible. The Aura doesn't play well with soundboard mics or transducers, either.

What I'm trying to do is record the guitar with a pair of microphones (they're decent, Shure SM-81s), and then process that signal through my outboard effects, which sound much better than my comparatively ancient software-based Digital Performer effects.

But my studio-fu is weak, and I haven't quite figured out how to do that properly.

Soooo...(rambling on, I tend to do that)...what really got me thinking about replacing my current magnetic pickup was sort of technique-based: the restriction in string choice. I splurged on a set of Thomastik-Infeld strings, which sound just lovely in the room, but because they're bronze, and wrapped in that clever Viennese way, the magnets don't like them and they sound terribly unbalanced when I use the pickup through an amp or for recording. It's my understanding that an undersaddle transducer won't be as fussy that way.
 
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idealassets

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That's a lot of variables to concentrate on. I have tried a lot of things, but prefer to get back to traditional items such as D'Adarrio PB light strings, the DTAR pickup, and sometimes a Fender Acoustasonic 40w amp.

For future plans its going to be a digital delay, wah-wah, looper, overdrive, and distortion pedals. I plan to use these for both the Ric 360/12 and Guild 12 strings. But in the meanwhile I still like the straight sound.

Locally we have 2 folk society "jams" each month for 3 hours each. Everyone gets to play every song, with a rotation basis to call and lead the songs. One is strictly acoustic, the other is amplified but with only guitar and vocal mic's. These jams are my favorites, since it doesn't get off the beaten track very much.
 
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