Aristocrat with Bigsby

dhdfoster

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I took delivery of a gold, NW Aristocrat yesterday, and I’m super impressed with it. Having owned a NS X175B, I was aware of what the quality would probably be like, and I wasn’t disappointed.

However, I’m really missing a Bigsby. It feels weird not to have one, but I’m a bit torn about installing one. I’ve resigned myself to the fact that it’ll need a B7 type and a Guild version is probably not going to be an option.

I have concerns about the “feet” under the bridge, stability, and excessive downward pressure on the bridge. I’m considering the Callaham front-roller to help things out a bit.

I haven’t made a decision yet, so for those of you with a Bigsby on your Aristocrat, what bridge/bridgebase are you using? Any tips?

Should I return it and get a Duo Jet? :)

 
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walrus

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I have no advice on the Bigsby, but I wanted to say I love that gold finish!

walrus
 

griehund

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1) How often do you use a Bigsby?

2) Do you already own a guitar that has one?

3) Do you object to having one with and one without?

4) Dang that's a pretty little thing don't it?
 

dhdfoster

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1) How often do you use a Bigsby?

All the time. Even in my sleep.

2) Do you already own a guitar that has one?

Yes, several.

3) Do you object to having one with and one without?

I don't object, but it feels incomplete. :)

4) Dang that's a pretty little thing don't it?

Yes, it is!
 

Walter Broes

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I have two friends who have old Aristocrats with a Bigsby. One is a late 50's one with a Bigsby B7 that was put on aftermarket. That guitar has a tune-o-matic on a custom made aftermarket base, kind of like what you'd see on an archtop, but thinner. It's stuck down with two wood screws in the bridge base, so obviously it doesn't move.

My other friend just got an early 60's (?) Aristocrat in mahogany finish, the striped sapele kind, with the two white soapbars. That guitar has a Guild B7, and it looks like it might very well be original to the guitar : it has the philips screw in the arm, so it IS and old B7, pre-61 or 62, and it has the matching Bigsby bridge with the assymetrical "Dogbone" base like you see on goldtop Les Pauls with a Bigsby. He came by my place last week, and I've played the guitar for a while, and it doesn't look like that bridge is going anywhere - the tuning is as solid as it gets with a Bigsby anyway.

You're kind of in between a rock and a hard place with an Aristocrat : the neck pitch is a little too shallow for a Bigsby B3, but it does get pretty steep with a Bigsby B7 - the first guitar I was talking about has the Bigsby shimmed quite a bit to make the string angle to the bridge less severe. That seems like more of a problem to me than the bridge moving - I think all the usual archtop bridge tricks should work for an aristocrat bridge as well.
 

Walter Broes

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Here's the early 60's one I was talking about - it was missing the lead pickup cover when he got it, hence the workbench pic

1555536_10202962698813658_1262804758_n_zpsa3f4b918.jpg
 

eltuce

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Two of mine ('58 and '60) have an ABR1 on the original base. So far that seems to work best for me. They're also both down as low as they can go, but they're good there. The original wooden bridges were not working out well and the action was very high. I have another which I think is a '55, and it has the wooden bridge screwed in. That one seems fine the way it is. It may be a bit of trial and error for you. Good luck!
 

dhdfoster

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I have two friends who have old Aristocrats with a Bigsby. One is a late 50's one with a Bigsby B7 that was put on aftermarket. That guitar has a tune-o-matic on a custom made aftermarket base, kind of like what you'd see on an archtop, but thinner. It's stuck down with two wood screws in the bridge base, so obviously it doesn't move.

My other friend just got an early 60's (?) Aristocrat in mahogany finish, the striped sapele kind, with the two white soapbars. That guitar has a Guild B7, and it looks like it might very well be original to the guitar : it has the philips screw in the arm, so it IS and old B7, pre-61 or 62, and it has the matching Bigsby bridge with the assymetrical "Dogbone" base like you see on goldtop Les Pauls with a Bigsby. He came by my place last week, and I've played the guitar for a while, and it doesn't look like that bridge is going anywhere - the tuning is as solid as it gets with a Bigsby anyway.

You're kind of in between a rock and a hard place with an Aristocrat : the neck pitch is a little too shallow for a Bigsby B3, but it does get pretty steep with a Bigsby B7 - the first guitar I was talking about has the Bigsby shimmed quite a bit to make the string angle to the bridge less severe. That seems like more of a problem to me than the bridge moving - I think all the usual archtop bridge tricks should work for an aristocrat bridge as well.

Yep, I noticed that it's very in between the two desirable neck angles for either Bigsby style. Thanks for the info on those two. A custom base and shims may be the ticket.
 

SFIV1967

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My other friend just got an early 60's (?) Aristocrat in mahogany finish, the striped sapele kind, with the two white soapbars. That guitar has a Guild B7, and it looks like it might very well be original to the guitar.
Walter, that can't be original. If I read Hans' book page 37 correctly, that B9 version (Guilds version of the B7) was only introduced around 1966/67 when the neckjoint on the Starfire V/VI moved from the 16th fret to the 18th fret.
See also Hans comment on page 71 which shows such B9 and bridge on an Aristocrat. So the setup is exactly like the one on your friends Aristocrat.
Ralf
 
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Walter Broes

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Ralf, I know, I have the Old Testament too. But Bigsbies didn't have that screw in the arm around 1966. I don't see why anyone would go through the trouble of replacing that screw. I'd been meaning to send Hans an email about it, with some pics of the guitar.
 

Walter Broes

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Ha! Yes, I was just looking at it before I saw your post. Yep, maybe we're on to something here huh? Two Aristocrats from the early sixties, same finish same Bigsby and bridge setup. Who knows, maybe they really did come this way after all. I'm not saying Hans doesn't know his stuff, if anyone does it's him, but still, who knows? Wasn't there a poster last year who had another mahogany/DeArmond/Bigsby Aristocrat last year? He called it a "baby starfire" or a "mini starfire" or something like that
 

hansmoust

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Walter, that can't be original. If I read Hans' book page 37 correctly, that B9 version (Guilds version of the B7) was only introduced around 1966/67 when the neckjoint on the Starfire V/VI moved from the 16th fret to the 18th fret.
See also Hans comment on page 71 which shows such B9 and bridge on an Aristocrat. So the setup is exactly like the one on your friends Aristocrat.
Ralf

Ralf, I know, I have the Old Testament too. But Bigsbies didn't have that screw in the arm around 1966. I don't see why anyone would go through the trouble of replacing that screw. I'd been meaning to send Hans an email about it, with some pics of the guitar.

Ralf & Walter,

That particular Cherry M-75 Aristocrat on page 71 of The Guild Guitar Book is mine. I bought it more than 20 years ago, while I was doing the research for the book. At that time I had never seen that version of the Bigsby B-7 (which is called the B-9 in the Guild branded version) on a guitar earlier than the Starfire Vs and VIs from the second half of the '60s. I found it hard to believe that Guild would have gone through the trouble of ordering their own version of the B-7 from Bigsby and then not use it on a regular Guild guitar for more than 5 years. So I stated in my book on page 71: 'The vibrato unit must have been added later, because this type of Bigsby was introduced in 1967'. Of course I did realize that the B-9 on my Cherry M-75 had the Philips screw, which was a feature from the early '60s, but in a factory situation it may have been possible to use the arm and the screw of an older Bigsby for whatever what reason .....but, I was wrong!
Since the book came out I've seen about half a dozen M-75s with the B-9 setup and it is now clear to me that the Bigsby unit on that guitar has to be original. I should add that shortly after the book was published, I got hold of the original 'factory ledgers' from 'final assembly' and in these ledgers all the M-75s that were set up with a B-9 are mentioned on the exact day that they were completed.

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
www.guitarsgalore.nl
 
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SFIV1967

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Thank you Hans! Great info. Now that all makes perfect sense!
Ralf
 
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Walter Broes

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Thanks Hans, I love it when I'm right for once, hahahahaha!!! I know that guitar is yours - I saw it on your wall many years ago, it's beautiful!!

I'll take a couple of pics of my friend's guitar when I get the chance, and send you the serial number.

Now that I know these guitars "exist", I'm afraid there's something I want even more than an Aristocrat.....an Aristocrat with a factory Bigsby!!!!
 

hansmoust

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I'll take a couple of pics of my friend's guitar when I get the chance, and send you the serial number.

Now that I know these guitars "exist", I'm afraid there's something I want even more than an Aristocrat.....an Aristocrat with a factory Bigsby!!!!

Hello Walter,

When I look at the specs of that guitar I would think it is probably one of very few that were done in a much bigger 'cherry finish' batch of M-65s and M-65-3/4s with serial numbers in the # 207xx range. M-75s were not selling well at the time and very few M-75s were made after this one. A year later it wasn't on the price list any longer and that may be part of the reason why we didn't see any Guilds with the B-9 outfit during the years that followed.

The introduction of the B-9 at an earlier stage than 1967 also explains the existence of quite a few Starfire Vs from around 1966 with the B-9 that pre-date the change to the '18th fret at the neck joint'. During my initial research for the book I was under the impression that the introduction of the B-9 Bigsby was connected with the move to the different style neck, so I had to adjust that theory as well. All these things eventually fall together but it shows how tricky it is when you're trying to document all that stuff with a somewhat limited amount of instruments. It also doesn't help that Guild never documented any of those changes and for the people who worked there at the time it wasn't really a big deal; how could they know that some nerds would be interested in that stuff 50 years down the line!

Sincerely,

Hans Moust
www.guitarsgalore.nl
 

jcwu

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Here's the early 60's one I was talking about - it was missing the lead pickup cover when he got it, hence the workbench pic

1555536_10202962698813658_1262804758_n_zpsa3f4b918.jpg

I'm sure it's partly due to the post-processing and lighting, but... that is one nice photo of a Guild!
 

dhdfoster

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Well, lookie, lookie. Much to my surprise, and joy, the Aristocrat ended up with a B3. It went into the shop for a B7, as I’ve completely lost my nerve for most DIY that includes drilling, but the shop called and said the B7 was way too much and I’d need a B3. I was skeptical, but I ordered a B3 and took it in. I’m glad to say they were right. It’s a little bit shallow, but they cut the saddle slots a tad deeper and the bridge is secured with double-sided tape. It works and sounds very good, and is much preferable to the alternative to me. I have a DE handle to go on it when I get around to it.

Also, I had the pickups rewound a little weaker and had them RWRP with a light waxing. I’m pretty pleased. At first, I was a little disappointed that it didn’t sound more like my vintage Guilds, but it has a tight, “honk” that I don’t have in any other guitar, so I think it may really grow on me. I guess it’s much more of a “blues” guitar than my others. Overall, it’s pretty kickass and I’m very satisfied.

Anyone want to buy a B7? :)

 
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