NBD 1967 Sunburst Starfire II

wisconsindead

Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2014
Messages
165
Reaction score
0
Ralf,

It appears to have been soldered onto the bottom of the pot. I can check when I get home, I'm not sure how these attachments work so I can't really say.

You can see how the switch and red wire are connected to the loop on the attachment and the single cap is connected to the base/body of the attachment.

imagejpg2_zps5d2a0be1.jpg
 

SFIV1967

Venerated Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2010
Messages
18,500
Reaction score
9,023
Location
Bavaria / Germany
Guild Total
8
You can see how the switch and red wire are connected to the loop on the attachment and the single cap is connected to the base/body of the attachment.
I can see that, but I can't see if there is an isolation in between or if the body of the pot, the base of the attachement and the "loop" and the "T" (where nothing seems to be conneted to) are all electrical connected (means are all at ground) or if certain parts of that attachment are isolated from each other. So let's check this next.
Ralf
 

wisconsindead

Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2014
Messages
165
Reaction score
0
Are you referring to holes beneath the loop and T? Its in my bass righht now so its difficult to get a picture.

Heres an alternate circuit that Crater made.

starfire-bassv2-png.476849
 

SFIV1967

Venerated Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2010
Messages
18,500
Reaction score
9,023
Location
Bavaria / Germany
Guild Total
8
O.k., I think in general that latest drawing of Crater is perfect! It really shows what happens. That answered also my questions about the connections on that added flange in the tone pot. (the 22nF cap is connected to the loop with the switch and the choke but not to ground).
But Crater has an error in both of his drawings, the resistor is not 22k but 220k because yellow means 4 zeros. (Red Red Yellow Silver = 2 2 0000 ohms with 10% tolerance = 220k ohms with 10%)

colours.gif


Ralf
 

SFIV1967

Venerated Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2010
Messages
18,500
Reaction score
9,023
Location
Bavaria / Germany
Guild Total
8
How do you tell which side is which on that resistor?
Was explained here: http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/sh...-Starfire-II&p=1652571&viewfull=1#post1652571 (The Gold or Silver band is always placed to the right. The resistor value is read from the left to right. Silver is not possible to be a resistor value !!!).
Regarding the other questions I don't know. I don't understand at all what the 220k ohms resistor does in there, I don't see any need for it. Please see the official Starfire II bass wiring diagram Frono psosted, how a better wiring would look like without the suck switch.
Ralf
 

Zelja

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2011
Messages
3,913
Reaction score
355
Location
Sydney, Australia
Heres an alternate circuit that Crater made.

starfire-bassv2-png.476849

Interesting circuit...especially the tone control arrangement!

My take & it's worth what you paid for it, assuming this circuit is correct (bar the 220k resistor value) then yes it will always "suck":

a) The 220k resistor is always in the circuit and as per the reasons stated in the thread Frono has linked above, it acts as a voltage divider with the volume pot, so you are always losing some signal (i.e volume) from the raw pickup output as a result.
b) With the tone pot fully one way say such that there is no resistance between the middle lug (pickup output) to the two two caps (0.044 mfd), then there is a direct signal to ground through the caps, rolling off lots of highs (standard tone pot action)
c) With the tone pot fully the other way say such that there is no resistance between the middle lug (pickup output) to the single cap in series with the inductor & with the suck switch open, then there is a direct signal to ground through the cap in series with inductor. Going through the cap to ground will want to drop off highs. Going through the inductor to ground will want to drop off lows. I guess this would do both! I'm guessing this is the "suck" position.
d) With the tone pot as in "c)" above with the suck switch closed, then the cap is is now shunted across the 220k resistor. This would add more highs (& volume) direct from the pickup to the output. The inductor is still in circuit and would still siphon off some lows to ground depending on it's value. So in this case I would expect more volume, overall brighter signal & more mids (as it is a decent sized cap) than in the previous arrangement.
e) If the tone pot was turned fully the other way from d) above, with the switch closed, then it would probably sound quite similiar to the scenario "b)" above as the there would be 200k (pot resistance) between what is now the shunt cap, mitigating it's effect.
f) With the tone pot in between the two extreme positions you would get both effects happening but with each reduced from maximum, depending where the pot position is.

Saying all that, Wisconsindead's sketch implies to me that there is terminal to ground when the switch is up. I have drawn it on diagram 1 in my markups below. If this is the case then when the switch is up, the inductor is bypassed to ground & effectively removed from the circuit. The 0.022 mfd cap is now shorted to ground like a normal tone circuit. So at this extreme the pot would just roll off highs but not as much as if turned fully the other way as the capacitance to ground is smaller. When the switch is down (closed as before) then it would have the same behaviour as described in d) above - i.e. cap becomes a shunt across the 220k resistor & the inductor is back in play.

My sketches below & some suggestions below it.

StarfireSuckswitchmods13092014_zps4c865fe6.jpg






Circuit 2 - Remove suck switch completely:-

a) disconnect 0.022 mfd cap (the one connected to the inductor) from the tone pot
b) disconnect switch from the volume pot/220 k resistor junction (or at the switch itself)
c) remove 220 k resistor from the circuit i.e. remove the resistor & wire the middle lug of the tone pot directly to the volume pot where the resistor currently is connected to. Alternatively you could leave the resistor in & just put a shunt across it i.e. wire in the cable between the tone & volume pots where the resistor is currently connected to.
d) Option - you could remove one of the two caps that are wired in parallel to reduce the overall capacitance & thus effect of the now much more normal tone control.

This should give you a normal tone control & more volume as the 220k resistor is now out of the circuit & the output receives almost the full signal of the pickup (you will still get some rolling off of the highs through the tone control even when the tone pot is on full, especially as it is only a 200k pot - with a higher value pot this will be diminished)

Circuit 3 - Use the switch as a bright switch of sorts:-

This is what was done on hagmeat's JSII in the thread Frono linked above. One switch position is normal (as per Circuit 2) the other position rolls off some lows but should still give you decent volume.
a) disconnect 0.022 mfd cap (the one connected to the inductor) from the tone pot
b) disconnect the inductor from the switch
c) place a 3300pf cap across the 220k resistor (or better still replace the 220k with a lower value, say 150k, as well)
d) connect the switch terminal which used to be connected to the inductor, to the other side of the resistor (all these connections would happen at the middle leg of the tone pot)

What happens now is:
- Switch down, i.e. closed - The resistor & cap are bypassed & you get max volume of the pickup as per Circuit 2 (i.e. standard circuit, no suckage)
- Switch up, i.e. open - The resistor & cap are now no longer bypassed ans are in circuit. The raw signal is reduced due to the resistor but the cap adds back some highs & hence volume. Overall effect is some bass cut & a brighter tone.

The resistor & cap values affect the outcome. Too big a resistor and you lose too much volume (& hence perceived bass). Too small a value and you won't hear much difference between the two switch positions. The way we worked out the 150k value in the other thread was to put a pot in the circuit temporarily as a variable resistor (an outer lug & middle lug connected) instead of the resistor using crocodile clips & varying the pot with the chosen cap which I had lying around. We then switch between the two positions of the (former) suck switch until we had a tone which had a decent difference to the bypassed position without too much volume drop. The pot was then taken out of the circuit without moving the shaft & the resistance across the lugs was measured. The next closest standard resistor value was then used and soldered into the circuit. Plenty of room for experimentation there as if you put in a different cap value it would affect things as well. Once again if the cap is too big you won't hear as much difference from the bypassed state.


Wow, that took a bit longer than expected so I'm not going to go back and proof read too carefully but hopefully that makes some sense but feel free to correct me if you thick I have erred somewhere.
 

SFIV1967

Venerated Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2010
Messages
18,500
Reaction score
9,023
Location
Bavaria / Germany
Guild Total
8
Saying all that, Wisconsindead's sketch implies to me that there is terminal to ground when the switch is up.
I don't think that is the case. Isn't it simply a "switch case" to "volume pot case" ground wire in order to somehow have all components properly grounded? Do you think that switch case is internal wired as one lug of the switch? I don't know. See the red wire. I only think that switch has an open (no connect) position and a close position with the two black wires.
So I would think that added (with red pen) ground in your drawing #1 does not exist.

imagejpg9_zps34b18fcf.jpg


Ralf
 
Last edited:

Zelja

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2011
Messages
3,913
Reaction score
355
Location
Sydney, Australia
Ralf, I wasn't really looking at the pics so I think you are correct. Strange looking switch - is it a rotary action?
 

SFIV1967

Venerated Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2010
Messages
18,500
Reaction score
9,023
Location
Bavaria / Germany
Guild Total
8
Last edited:

Zelja

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2011
Messages
3,913
Reaction score
355
Location
Sydney, Australia
Gotcha. I normally expect to see a toggle switch like on hagmeat's JSII or the phase switch on an S-100.
 

wisconsindead

Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2014
Messages
165
Reaction score
0
Thanks Frono, Ralf and Zelja. I appreciate all the help! This information will be beneficial for others down the road. And its nice to finally have a reasonable idea as to why the circuit did what it does.
 

SFIV1967

Venerated Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2010
Messages
18,500
Reaction score
9,023
Location
Bavaria / Germany
Guild Total
8
Gotcha. I normally expect to see a toggle switch like on hagmeat's JSII or the phase switch on an S-100.
Zelko: The switch was manufactured by the "Circle F Manufacturing Co" in Trenton/NJ. (Hence a "F" in a circle on the back).
In 1992 State Tool purchased the assets of them, so Circle F as company does not exist anymore.
Here is a nice vintage advertisement for those "Push Canopy Switches" from 1959:

ijolm6VQXLkwN.jpg

Source: http://www.tvlamps.net/advertisements.html

Ralf
 
Last edited:

Zelja

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2011
Messages
3,913
Reaction score
355
Location
Sydney, Australia
I still reckon you are a detective Ralf... I don't believe this "salesman" stuff for a minute!
 

mavuser

Enlightened Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2010
Messages
8,224
Reaction score
2,757
Location
New York
Well I am glad some of my guesses about the use components were right.
So all pots are made by CTS (Chicago Telephone Supply, manufacturer code 137).
All, except that 200kohms pot are 500kohms pots (Guild part number 004019) made in 1967 in weeks 44 and 48.
Now the 200kohms pot (Guild code 004026) is made in week 02 in 1968.
That could be an indication that it was changed at some point in time. It's at least an original Guild pot.
As I explained before a lower value of the neck tone pot means that more high frequencies go to ground, so the neck pickup is slightly darker compared to the bridge pickup. All good and normal.

Ralf

I am doing some research for a couple things and finding this thread very helpful, thanks to all.

I must contribute that I belive the above referenced 200kohms, Guild code 004026 of week 02, 1968 neck tone pot to be original, as it is the appropriate neck tone pot at 200kohms, as Ralf explained in much detail multiple times in this thread...It makes 100 percent sense to me, based on my Guild basses and this thread...I believe the difference in patina, or level of patina is simply that this one pot originated from a different intital inventory/stock/box, as it is different from the other 3, and this is the original neck tone pot, technically making your bass a 1968, not 1967. week 2 of 1968 on the final component(s) would make it a very early 1968.

I also just came to the same revelation about one of mine, which appears to be an early 1971 Jetstar bass (not 1970 as it appeared by serial number) for the same exact reason (neck tone pot week 06, 1971, but volume pots are 1970), and I will post about that in the appropriate thread shortly.

to touch on it though...the Guild serial # website says 46696-50978 is 1970, my Jetstar bass, based on this would be late 1970 at 504XX. plus we know there are "hoboken serial numbers from 1970" on top of that. so at approx 5,000 instruments in 1970 (or more)...according to a website in the future, it is entirely feasible that the last 500 or so, or any random handfull of those last unfinished instruments (maybe just 50 of those 500...but not necassarially the last numbered 50...) were actually completed in 1971, according to the 2 tone pots inside my actual bass (304-7106). If Wisconsinsdead is calling his a 1967, I imagine his serial number puts it in the later part of 1967 (to "match" his very early 1968 tone pot). We can go by the incomplete records on the website from the future, or by the date stamp on 3 of the 4 tone pots inside mine and Wisconsinsdeads 2 basses...both with such early week of's from the following year...it would be so unlikley any or all 3 of those pots were changed so shortly after being sold new. Therefore, I believe it would be very unlikely either his bass or mine were actually completed in the published years that correspond to the serial numbers. they are close, but must be approximate or somehow grouped together nonetheless. perhaps this is a significant aknowledgement?

also while we are here... Ralf, or anyone else, what do you make of Guild stamp# 004029 (304-7106) for a bass pickup tone pot? 200kohms? 150?
(the volume pots on that bass are 00420 304-7016)
 
Top