Opinions on "Sweetened Tuning"? (e.g. James Taylor & StroboClip"

Hi Folks . . .

In the midst of deciding on a tuner, I ran across some information that Peterson took input from James Taylor for their "Sweetened Tuning" on the StrobClip tuner. JT apparently uses the following offsets:

-3 cents for E/1st
-6 cents for B
-4 cents for G
-8 cents for D
-10 cents for A
-12 cents for E/6th

I've not tried this yet (need to replace a stripped machine head), but other players I've read about were surprised how much they like this tuning method and how "sweet" it sounds haha.

So my question is . . . has anyone tried tuning this way and, if so, do you like it?

Since I cannot find a clip-on tuner that *displays* the actual CENTS, it looks like I'd need to go with the StrobClip preset to achieve this tuning.

I'm also wondering if a guitar is truly setup correctly (like those coming from Tom/Fixit), if a "Sweetened Tuning" is even an improvement.

Ok, that's it for now - Thanks in advance for any input!

Not sure, but I'm curious as to how you are expected to arrive at that tuning. I'd guess you would be tuning as the note decays? It seems like the idea with "sweetening" the tuning like that would be to compensate for the bass strings going slightly sharp when plucked firmly or something? I've read about that before.

FWIW, I broke out my tried and true Boss TU-12 and gave that a try. It worked well, but I'm not sure how big of a deal it is, really. For one thing, I'm real picky about intonation being thrown off, and I cut nut slots down to a zero-fret level because of that--something like .010-.012" clearance when measured at the first fret with the strings open I guess? (Haven't made much effort in checking) That makes a HUGE difference in the sweetness of open chords on most guitars IMO, because most come with the nut slots way too shallow, so the strings are bent out of tune close to the nut.

IMO, I think most any "good" tuner these days is probably functionally fine for 99% of what anyone will be doing. Most will show cents, but will just show 10-20-etc, like my analog Boss tuner does. There's no way in hell you are ever going to tune to within 1 cent IMO/IME, so an individual readout is really pretty pointless. Even if you did, the 12 tone equal temperament that you are tuning to isn't really "perfect", anyway.* A guitar without a compensated saddle will also be somewhat "out" from that, and as a result you may find that the above list of "offsets" isn't the sweetest-sounding thing for your guitar. Considering all of the variables in play (including many I didn't even mention), I think the idea of a generic correction down to a single cent is really pretty silly.

In fact, the inherent slight dissonance of equal temperament is how I tuned my piano recently; set A4 to an A440 tuning fork, and from there you are tuning all the other notes to be slightly dissonant from each other. I'll now also tune a guitar the same way with a tuning fork, or when going to drop-d and back to standard. I can grab the low e, wind it down to a d comparing to the d string, then comparing it to the a string I'll wind it right back up to e. I've checked with a tuner, and most all of the time I'll get within a couple cents of "perfect" just quickly doing that!

*Interesting tidbit about 12 tone equal temperament; If you ever have a guitar tuned up "perfectly", you'll note that the strings still "beat" very slightly when compared to each other, as if they are slightly out of tune--because they are. Interesting thing to read about if you aren't familiar with it. (Well, it is if you're weird like me, anyway.)

To clarify the point of that useless ramble somewhat:

How the guitar sounds to you and other's listening to it is the only thing that matters. What is "perfect" for one of James Taylor's guitars may not be perfect on yours, and going down to individual cents is probably just added frustration anyway, and almost certainly won't be attainable to begin with without a "perfect" guitar. Unless the guitar is "perfect", you are compensating in part for the guitar itself, which will obviously vary.

The StroboClip thing is probably a great tuner, but I kind of doubt that you will really notice much actual advantage over other nice tuners on the market just because of being able to theoretically tune to single cents because of the readout.

Good stuff Chaz - thanks. I've only ever used a tuning fork and realize that no tuner can improve intonation issues for instance. I'm looking forward to having Tom Fixit get his hands on this instrument and optimize things like you mention (nut slots etc.) so the guitar itself is capable of a reasonably true tuning. I just thought the JT offsets were interesting and wondered if anyone here has ever tried them and, if so, how it sounded to their ears.

I think that (for me, anyway) a guitar that's well set up and compensated sounds real nice as-is. I personally associated de-tuning bass strings like that as a method of compensating for the string going sharp when plucked strongly, which is why I also am not sure how one would use that as a general tuning spec. I also have no idea why the high e is down three cents from standard pitch--why start out flat? Like I said, I tried it out, but I don't think there's all that much to it. You may or may not want to "sweeten" the tuning slightly to your ear/guitar, but IMO that's a personal thing that is by no means universal. For me and my guitars, I don't feel a need to.

Also, if the above "offsets" are tuned to by plucking the string as hard as you are going to be playing (as when tuning normally), then that low E at 12 cents flat is going to be sour when compared to something in standard pitch. Something to think about if you are recording with other instruments or playing with others.

James Taylor doesn't play a Taylor, he plays an Olsen (LOL). Ok, Just trying to be funny, but maybe that guitar has some influence, not just the tuning, on his guitar tone. $12k +/- will get a lot of tone!

I use a Peterson StroboClip and for what its worth I prefer the sweetened tuning to the "regular" tuning, particularly on my DV-6 (lightweight rosewood dreadnought). The F-47R and D-35 exhibit less improvement but I can hear a difference with both those guitars as well. Doesn't seem to make any difference at all on the 12-strings, probably because of the variations in tuning the string pairs.

The best way for me to describe the difference between sweetened and unsweetened tunings is the sweetened seems better intonated across all chords. My guitars are well-intonated to begin with (thank you, Pete Brown), but sweetened tunings somehow make them "more" intonated.

I've been interested in trying the Stroboclip tuner with it's sweetened tunings, but haven't yet. One thing I do that might have a similar effect... I regularly use my chromatic tuners to tune my guitars capoed at the first or second fret. I find they sound better when tuned with the capo on than when I tune open. Since capoing would tend to stretch the strings a bit, I would expect the strings to be ever so slightly flat without the capo.

Interesting topic. I recently had a compensated nut installed on my Strat. Open chords on the low frets sound sweeter and more in tune. The theory is that it compensates for they way you pull strings sharp when fretting notes - an effect that is more pronounced on the lower frets.

Standard tuning, not offset at all, it sounds perfect. If there is a downside, it seems to me that whenever the guitar is slightly out of tune, it sounds worse than it used to with the standard nut. I could be imagining it but a guitar builder I know thinks the same thing: perfectly in tune - great. Slightly out - a bit awful. I can't think just why that would be.

Maybe I'm being dense, but why not just tweak the tuning until it sounds right to you (the player, not anyone here in particular)? As interesting as it might be to have precise information about how Artist A tunes Guitar B to get his preferred sound, I wonder how that precise tuning would sound on Guitar C or Z (played by Artist Q).

I regularly play out on four or five different guitars, each of which requires a slightly different set of tweaks to sound sweet to me, and I suspect that some of my listeners don't notice the differences between the tweaked and untweaked states.

That's also my thought on the subject, Russ.

Crazy, I've never heard of this, but I do something similar already. I downtune the entire guitar a full step and then sometimes drop the lowest two strings another step. Even though I use heavier strings, they can still go very sharp during forte and fortissimo sections of my songs, so I've learned to downtune a few cents extra do get everything into the right window.

I guess there really is nothing new under the sun.

Russell Letson said:

Maybe I'm being dense, but why not just tweak the tuning until it sounds right to you (the player, not anyone here in particular)? As interesting as it might be to have precise information about how Artist A tunes Guitar B to get his preferred sound, I wonder how that precise tuning would sound on Guitar C or Z (played by Artist Q).

I regularly play out on four or five different guitars, each of which requires a slightly different set of tweaks to sound sweet to me, and I suspect that some of my listeners don't notice the differences between the tweaked and untweaked states.

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Hi Russ - for me (and I think for some of the others here who commented) it's mostly a matter of intonation. We all tune our guitars the best we can regardless of the method and the result is some chords sound right on while others may sound a tad off - or possibly the open chords sound great but not so much when capo'd at certain frets or vice versa. I initially thought this was purely a matter of a proper setup and maybe it is to a large degree (including nut/bridge adjustments and so on), but my best guess is that JT did in fact have a near perfect setup on his guitar when deciding that these offsets were a significant improvement for him - hence my initial question. I'm not a master player by any means, but have a pitch sensitive ear and found this idea of sweetened tuning interesting is all.

Disclaimer: I have read the 12 note scale is mathematically out of tune with itself to begin with, so getting it "perfect" is not possible and that ultimately it's all trade offs in the end, but again just curious what you all have experienced in your travels. Seems like JT found an optimized trade off that suits him using these offsets.

And if JT is playing mainly in one key or out of one set of shapes, a particular set of offsets is going to work across it. On my Goodall, I tweak mine to sound sweet for a first-position G chord, with the open low E just a skootch flat. For a sweet D chord, the B needs to be flat. That's not necessary on some of my other guitars. And when I play closed-position chords up the neck (around, say, B-flat), neither of those adjustments seem as important.

Russell Letson said:

Maybe I'm being dense, but why not just tweak the tuning until it sounds right to you (the player, not anyone here in particular)? As interesting as it might be to have precise information about how Artist A tunes Guitar B to get his preferred sound, I wonder how that precise tuning would sound on Guitar C or Z (played by Artist Q)
.

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i do that, which is why i dont obsess too much about how accurate my tuner is (usually the old intellitouch pt2). at home i use the old a 440 tuning fork ive had for ever. once im in the ballpark i use 1st position octaves until i can hardly hear the 'beats'. so far its kept old mckaila pretty much complaint-free, wether im jamming with a piano, harp, mandolin, or whomever.

Chaz said:

For one thing, I'm real picky about intonation being thrown off, and I cut nut slots down to a zero-fret level because of that--something like .010-.012" clearance when measured at the first fret with the strings open I guess? (Haven't made much effort in checking) That makes a HUGE difference in the sweetness of open chords on most guitars IMO, because most come with the nut slots way too shallow, so the strings are bent out of tune close to the nut.

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This.

A luthier told me the nut on my guitar was cut too high, must have been more than 15 years ago, and he set me straight - and a week later all my guitars had had the nut worked on. I'll even take some extra fret buzz or the effort to lighten up on my picking to avoid open string buzz. A lot of guitars have a nut that's too tall, and IMO it makes a guitar hard to play, play out of tune, and somehow, guitars play sound better to me with a nut that's cut as low as it will go.

Russell Letson said:

Maybe I'm being dense, but why not just tweak the tuning until it sounds right to you (the player, not anyone here in particular)?

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I used only an A 440 fork for years and tuned by ear from the A string. When I finally went to a tuner (after trying to tune my classical guitar in a noisy backstage), I found I had to tweak to get what I thought was right. When I got a Stroboflip, it was the first time that the tuner and my ears agreed (not sweetened). The Stroboclip is the same, I don't have to tweak after using it's standard tuning. I guess we all have different ideas (or ears) on tuning.
Brad