Guild D-40 Question With Repairs

Purchased a 1976 Guild D-40 on Ebay for $1,000. It appeared to be a good looking guitar, but when it arrived it had a hairline crack along the pick guard, which the seller did not disclose. While I was willing to overlook that flaw because of the age, I could not get past the guitar having dead notes mostly toward the neck. I took the guitar to Tobias music in Lisle Illinois to get a refret, which I thought would solve the problem of dead notes and buzzing. The guitar came back with the same problem. I tried putting medium gauge strings on it, but that didn't work, just causing more buzzing further up the fretboard. I took the guitar to Cremer Guitars in Aurora and he said the setup could have been better and suggested some modifications.

Question: Is this guitar just bad or can it be fixed? There is absolutely nothing wrong with the neck, it's straight as an arrow and the headstock is nearly in mint condition. I am really puzzled as what to do? I have tried adjusting the truss rod. That alleviates the buzzing and dead notes toward along the first couple of frets to a degree, but the buzzing shows up further down the fretboard.

Any suggestions? It cannot need a neck reset, because, as I said, the neck looks great.

I like to try and identify the problem area before I take it to my tech...

First thing I would do is check the relief... for most folks, the neck should not be "straight as an arrow." Put a capo on the first fret and then use your finger to fret the 14th fret. There should be a slight gap (0.006-0.012", depending on your preference and the guitar) between the bottom of the strings and the top of the 8th fret. That's half the diameter to a full diameter of a light gauge high e string. Adjust the truss rod (in small increments) to achieve the correct relief (loosening increases relief, tightening decreases relief).

After the relief is set correctly, I would check the action at the 12th fret...depending on the player and style of play, it could be from 5/64 (that's on the low end) to 8/64ths (a bit high) for the low E string (measuring from the top of the fret to the bottom of the string), and ~1/32 less on the high e. I like my Guilds with 7/64" under the low E and 5/64" under the high e... suits my combination of picking and strumming.

If the relief and action are in the right ballpark, and you still have dead notes and/or buzzing, it might mean that you have a high fret somewhere... I would expect it to be just down the neck from where your dead notes are. You can use a short straight edge (StewMac sells a special tool... but a credit card with a clean edge works in a pinch), just long enough to span three frets, as a "fret rocker" to try and find the high fret. As you move the straight edge down the neck on the frets, try and rock it... if it rocks, it means either the fret currently in the center is high, or one of the frets either side is low.

(If you want to check the neck angle... lay a long straight edge along the frets and extending to the bridge (or sight long the frets, looking at the bridge). It should hit just about right at the top of the bridge. A little low is probably OK... but if it hits well below the top of the bridge, a neck set is in the offing)

In the end, find someone with a reputation of doing good fret work, have them evaluate it, and level , crown, and dress the frets if necessary.

What did the second place suggest, re: improving the setup?

It sounds like the guitar wasn't setup properly, & string vibrations are being dampened by touching the frets above where your fingers are touching the strings.

Guitar necks need a little relief, by the way . . . "straight as an arrow" isn't a good thing, in my opinion. Lay a straight edge on the fretboard, & see where it intersects the bridge. If it just kisses the top of the bridge, that's good news. If it hits the side of the bridge, that's not a good thing (neck reset due).

Oh, and welcome to LTG.

edit: more-detailed good advice was posted above, while I was composing my reply!

Your question's already being addressed so I'll just throw in a WELCOME TO LTG!
Mention of a '76 D40 gets my attention every time.

Stick around and enjoy your time here. eaceful:

Joe

Oh yeah, did anyone mention how much we love pics? Have any to share? eaceful:

Joe

Welcome to LTG!
Exactly what GardMan said is the right procedure.
Always adjust the truss rod first and second adjust the action, not vice versa.
And the guitar need to be tuned to pitch when you do it.

Here is a good Taylor tech sheet about it: http://c3.zzounds.com/media/truss_rod_adjustment-c53669fbee160b82ed2b3d44fed49ac3.pdf

Now after you are 100% sure that your truss rod is set correctly, you can now check the action on the 12th fret.

In a previous Guild owners manual Guild wrote for the 12th fret test:
On the low E string: The gap should be from .085" to .093" (5.5/64" to 6/64").
On the high E string: The gap should be .070" to .078" (4.5/64" to 5/64").

Taylor Guitars uses 6/64" and 4/64" as standard settings.
Here is their guide for checking the action and if necessary making a new saddle: http://c3.zzounds.com/media/action-7ff530daa50f07b282eb101094a987d4.pdf

Using a 6" ruler (with 1/32" and 1/64" increments) does a good job here. (You get this in every automotive shop).
That below right picture shows already a too high action (8/64" instead of 6/64" in that case).




And if a guitar needs a neck reset has nothing to do how the neck itself looks, it has to do how the neck is set to the body in relation to the bridge and saddle!

See: http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Musician/Guitar/Setup/NeckAngle/neckangle.html

Ralf

Sounds like the fretboard extension.
This means neckreset.....

Bear214 said:

Purchased a 1976 Guild D-40 on Ebay for $1,000. It appeared to be a good looking guitar, but when it arrived it had a hairline crack along the pick guard, which the seller did not disclose. While I was willing to overlook that flaw because of the age, I could not get past the guitar having dead notes mostly toward the neck. I took the guitar to Tobias music in Lisle Illinois to get a refret, which I thought would solve the problem of dead notes and buzzing. The guitar came back with the same problem. I tried putting medium gauge strings on it, but that didn't work, just causing more buzzing further up the fretboard. I took the guitar to Cremer Guitars in Aurora and he said the setup could have been better and suggested some modifications.

Question: Is this guitar just bad or can it be fixed? There is absolutely nothing wrong with the neck, it's straight as an arrow and the headstock is nearly in mint condition. I am really puzzled as what to do? I have tried adjusting the truss rod. That alleviates the buzzing and dead notes toward along the first couple of frets to a degree, but the buzzing shows up further down the fretboard.

Any suggestions? It cannot need a neck reset, because, as I said, the neck looks great.

Click to expand...

Sorry, I should not have said the neck is straight as an arrow. Obviously, there should be some relief in the neck. What I meant to say is that the neck is not warped at all, which might be the cause of my problem. Thank you for all your suggestions. I will print them out and have them delivered to Joe, the guitar tech at Tobias music, when I drop the guitar off today for a re-examination. And yes, I will get some photos up of the guitar soon. I also have a 90s Guild DCE5. It's an extraordinary good instrument, but sadly in bad shape. The guitar had a bad refret done at Guitarsworks in Evanston and has not seen much playing since then. Now the truss rod on it is busted. I hope I can restore it, because you can't find this guitar anywhere. It's even better than my D-40, plays like butter and the tone with the thick rosewood back and sides is incomparable.

Suggestions

Thank you and everyone else who responded with their suggestions. I have printed them out all and will drop them off tomorrow along with the guitar at the music shop for a re-examination of the D-40. Even though my receipt said "setup as needed", I don't think any setup was done at all. The bridge and therefore, the action was not adjusted in any way. So basically the tech (Joe), who is known as one of the two best Luthiers in Illinois, did the refret without doing the setup other than probably minor truss rod adjustment. The other tech that I took the guitar to, Cremer in Aurora, pointed to the bridge needing adjusting and possibly the nut even being replaced. He also found that the saddle is slightly separated from the top, although it's unlikely that is the cause of the buzzing. Truth be told, I have had nothing but disappointment and bad experiences with Luthiers in Illinois, even reputable ones. Doesn't anyone know how to fix a guitar anymore?

Speaking of which, I also own a 90s Guild DCE5, which is in sort of bad shape. A tech at Guitarworks in Evanston, IL, did a poor fret job on it, and it has been mostly sitting in the case. I took it out yesterday only to find that the truss rod is busted. Great. So that's another project. It needs a refret, neck reset and truss rod repair. But I think it's worth fixing it. For one, the guitar is rare. You don't see it around anywhere. Secondly, it plays like butter with great response. And thirdly, the sound is incomparable with its thick and aged rosewood back and sides. It's also got gold plated tuners, which is emblematic of a good Guild guitar. I have gigged with this guitar previously and would like to gig again. I want to switch out the factory Fishman pickup for a new one.

Yes, it would be nice to get both guitars into shape. I not only play live but also compose. I play all sorts of stuff, Zeppelin songs like Thank you, Rain Song, That's the Way, Beatles songs such as Nowwhere Man and Rain, Bowie, Floyd and others. I enjoy playing in alternate tunings.

You mentioned the saddle is separating from the guitar. Did you mean the Bridge? Get it re glued.
It sounds like the guitar needs to be humidified, You may want a new nut and saddle installed when you get the set up. Be sure that there isn't a spacer under the saddle. Does the guitar have a USP pick-up in it?
This could add to the problem.
Have the braces looked at to see if any are loose. Any of these things can cause your problem.

Bear214 said:

Speaking of which, I also own a 90s Guild DCE5, which is in sort of bad shape. But I think it's worth fixing it. For one, the guitar is rare. You don't see it around anywhere.

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ABSOLUTELY worth fixing. Just within the last couple of weeks somebody here couldn't figure out why someboday was asking $1500.00 for one in decent nick. Thought it was overpriced. You just confirmed what I thought , it really is that rare these days.

Bear214 said:

Secondly, it plays like butter with great response.

Click to expand...

Now that says to me you know what a good Guild should feel like. That phrase was just hype to me until I met my '96 D25 and that's what actually sold me on it. Unfortunately it got a not-quite perfect refret in '99 and I thought I was just getting old and didn't quite have it any more until it got a second refret about 4 years ago and came back perfect. All I had to do was deepen the A string nut slot a few thousandths and sand down the saddle profile under the A and D a few thousandths to adjust it to my personal ergonomic needs, and it was like having a brand new guitar again, neck-wise.
So I get what you mean about finding a good luthier.
If one of 'em said he thought the nut had been replaced, that's a good place to look for a problem. It's surprising how much effect the slot depth has on playability and it's real easy to go too deep, could well be the source of some of those dead notes. Also, it's easy to forget the importance of having the saddle profile match the fingerboard radius.
Anyway, trust your touch, don't settle for "good enough".
Final note: A '76 D40 may be from the era of very "chunky" neck profiles and need a little bit different treatment to "feel right".
Good luck and welcome aboard!

Dce%

adorshki said:

ABSOLUTELY worth fixing. Just within the last couple of weeks somebody here couldn't figure out why someboday was asking $1500.00 for one in decent nick. Thought it was overpriced. You just confirmed what I thought , it really is that rare these days.

Now that says to me you know what a good Guild should feel like. That phrase was just hype to me until I met my '96 D25 and that's what actually sold me on it. Unfortunately it got a not-quite perfect refret in '99 and I thought I was just getting old and didn't quite have it any more until it got a second refret about 4 years ago and came back perfect. All I had to do was deepen the A string nut slot a few thousandths and sand down the saddle profile under the A and D a few thousandths to adjust it to my personal ergonomic needs, and it was like having a brand new guitar again, neck-wise.
So I get what you mean about finding a good luthier.
If one of 'em said he thought the nut had been replaced, that's a good place to look for a problem. It's surprising how much effect the slot depth has on playability and it's real easy to go too deep, could well be the source of some of those dead notes. Also, it's easy to forget the importance of having the saddle profile match the fingerboard radius.
Anyway, trust your touch, don't settle for "good enough".
Final note: A '76 D40 may be from the era of very "chunky" neck profiles and need a little bit different treatment to "feel right".
Good luck and welcome aboard!

Click to expand...

Thank you for your kind words. Yes, I intend to fix the DCE5, because I love playing that guitar. It probably will cost me $1,000 for a refret, neck reset and truss rod repair. A few days ago I stopped at Guitar Center to get new strings for my D-40 when I had the chance to play some acoustics in the back. I found that my D-40 was better than all of them, Martins, Taylors, Gibsons except a Martin D-41 that was really nice. Of course, that guitar costs about $4,000 plus. But my DCE5 is in a whole different league. It just sounds and plays that great. You don't find guitars with such thick back and sides made of rosewood. I thought it was mahogany until I took it to a luthier who said definitely rosewood. And the guitar is heavy too. I'm a big guy, so that suits me just find. The only guitar heavier than the DCE5 I have played was a JF-30 I owned. Talk about a tank. I'm going to buy another 12 string eventually. Either it will be another JF-30 or maybe a Gibson jumbo.

Send it to Fixit!

You won't be sorry. ;-)

One more thing to check, although it won't address the buzzing, but might address what you're calling "dead sounding", would be the braces. A loose top brace can certainly make a guitar sound "dead".

West

This is a good piece of advice. My D40, prior to her repairs, sounded dead, and when I asked the luthier about it, he stated that with so many loose braces in there, it was a wonder there was any vibration at all.

Long story short, he re-glued everything, and those loose braces made a huge difference in the sound.

Take a look at that maybe.
~syf

stealyerface said:

This is a good piece of advice. My D40, prior to her repairs, sounded dead, and when I asked the luthier about it, he stated that with so many loose braces in there, it was a wonder there was any vibration at all.

Long story short, he re-glued everything, and those loose braces made a huge difference in the sound.

Take a look at that maybe.
~syf

Click to expand...

When I showed Tobias Sr. my guitar (owner of Tobias music in Lisle) and told him what was wrong with the dead notes and buzzing, I got first, "Well, we can make any guitar buzz". Didn't appreciate the mockery. And then after I got a second opinion from Cremer at Cremer music, I was told by Tobias Sr., "sounds like a guitar" when I strummed some chords in the middle where the buzzing was apparent. I told the guy it was clear he wasn't a very good guitar player if he couldn't hear the buzz. I have been playing for 20+ years and know when a guitar is sounding good and when it is not. I am sure they tell that to all their dissatisfied customers, "I don't hear nothin." Well I am not a guy to be bullied by clueless guitar shop owners.

Yup, find someone else, bear. Good luck.