1967 D50 - Am I Braz OR am I EIR (with pictures)

BJ_Toscano · Sep 20, 2014

A genetic test would be the only surefire way but I'm sure that's cost prohibitive. The scratch and sniff test could work but that's subjective to some degree.

I've been following Hoboken/early Westerly D-50s closely for a few years now. In my opinon, they are some of the coolest Guilds ever. The only thing I haven't done is started a database to track serial numbers and save pictures. I've said this in the past here, but I think there are much fewer Brazilian D-50s than is generally assumed. For whatever reason, all the 1967 D-50s I've seen appear to have Indian rosewood backs.

Here are a few examples:

AL-464 with Indian rosewood back and Brazilian sides (http://jimadams.info/Photos/67D50.html)
Another at Gryphon with Indian rosewood back and sides (http://www.gryphonstrings.com/instpix/38800/)

refret · Sep 22, 2014

Not sure how accurate it is, but I was told some time ago that Brazilian rosewood has no purple in it.

chazmo · Sep 22, 2014

... and often has some greenish veins in it

LateStart · Sep 22, 2014

Well mine is AL-496, so if those are EIR, it is certainly possible that I am EIR also. Time will tell.

In the meantime, it sounds pretty good and I haven't done any of the standard, nut, saddle, bridge pin upgrades yet...

SFIV1967 · Sep 22, 2014

LateStart said:
I am curious, but it would only matter on sale, which is not in the immediate plans.

Well, to me Braz is "worthless"...Because you can't legally export a Braz guitar outside the states or import in any country, so you limit your potential buyers to US only. So even if a rich Japanese buyer would offer you big money, no way to get it there...So what is a Braz guitar worth? Basically less than a EIR guitar, except that it is a rare and good sounding wood. Inside the US you have higher prices for a Braz guitar, true.
Ralf

LateStart · Sep 22, 2014

I have seen CITES discussed, but haven't read closely.

Why would a 40 year old guitar with a *verifiable* serial number have any issue? A NEW BRAZ guitar should be inspected, but a clearly vintage Guild, Martin, whatever, should not be a problem. Can you explain?

chazmo · Sep 22, 2014

The rules on shipping / exporting Brazilian rosewood are pretty draconian these days. I think it's been true for a long time, though, that customs can confiscate a guitar with Braz even if it's old. I know that my F-50R from 1967 was confiscated by Japanese customs when the ship captain who owned it brought it in there. That was a LONG time ago, by the way. He got it back, luckily.

Ralf is making a great point, but I think that his viewpoint is not the common one. Braz is indeed highly valued, and many luthiers swear by the stuff. That said, I would seriously think more than twice about traveling with a Braz guitar these days.

SFIV1967 · Sep 22, 2014

LateStart said:
A NEW BRAZ guitar should be inspected, but a clearly vintage Guild, Martin, whatever, should not be a problem. Can you explain?

It's a big problem actually worldwide!

Here is some good explanation of the process you need to follow in the US if you want to travel outside the US with a guitar that contains even a tiny piece of Braz like a bridge or a fretboard...(legally the amount of Braz used does not matter).:
http://www.fretboardjournal.com/blog/have-guitar-passport-will-travel
Selling a guitar outside requires "commercial" applications.

Here is the extensive story how this is handled in Europe, same hazzle: http://www.rio-palisander.de/index-english.htm

Ralf

LateStart · Sep 22, 2014

Ok - uninformed question. If WE can't collectively figure out what is EIR vs. Braz how is some random custom's officer doing it? Wouldn't you just say -- 'dude relax, it's Indian Rosewood!"? Do they have onsite testing? Or confiscate now ask questions later? Are they grabbing EIR guitars by mistake? This is really an interesting problem...

jcwu · Sep 22, 2014

LateStart said:
Ok - uninformed question. If WE can't collectively figure out what is EIR vs. Braz how is some random custom's officer doing it? Wouldn't you just say -- 'dude relax, it's Indian Rosewood!"? Do they have onsite testing? Or confiscate now ask questions later? Are they grabbing EIR guitars by mistake? This is really an interesting problem...

Soon-to-be-seen-on-eBay:

"This guitar is certified Brazilian Rosewood - see photos documenting confiscation by customs officials."

adorshki · Sep 22, 2014

LateStart said:
Or confiscate now ask questions later?

My last understanding is that, like any "questionable substance", that is EXACTLY how much discretion a given customs inspector has.
In counterpoint the Federal official in charge of the whole endangered species trade enforcement issue said a couple of years back they're not looking to target individual instrument owners. They're more interested in cutting off commercial exploitation by enforcing import/export regs, that's the real purpose of the CITES treaties.

SFIV1967 · Sep 22, 2014

LateStart said:
Or confiscate now ask questions later? Are they grabbing EIR guitars by mistake?

Yes, see here: http://www.rio-palisander.de/index-english.htm
"...by the end of 2012 resulted in the seizure of several instruments with and without Brazilian rosewood and the cancellation of the german Vintage Guitar Show in Oldenburg, taking place since 1985 ."

And the second problem is that I can't buy any guitar from ebay where the seller proudly states that it has a Brazilian rosewood bridge or fingerboard because customs officers in Germany want to see the original printout of the ebay auction or shops description from the web to compare it with my Paypal receipt...Tough guys I tell you, not only on the border control but also when a shipment comes in by mail.

Ralf

mario1956 · Sep 23, 2014

BJ_Toscano said:
A genetic test would be the only surefire way but I'm sure that's cost prohibitive. The scratch and sniff test could work but that's subjective to some degree.

I've been following Hoboken/early Westerly D-50s closely for a few years now. In my opinon, they are some of the coolest Guilds ever. The only thing I haven't done is started a database to track serial numbers and save pictures. I've said this in the past here, but I think there are much fewer Brazilian D-50s than is generally assumed. For whatever reason, all the 1967 D-50s I've seen appear to have Indian rosewood backs.

Here are a few examples:

AL-464 with Indian rosewood back and Brazilian sides (http://jimadams.info/Photos/67D50.html)
Another at Gryphon with Indian rosewood back and sides (http://www.gryphonstrings.com/instpix/38800/)

Here's some 'mo....

http://www.gbase.com/gear/guild-d-50-1970-natural# - Indian back, Brazilian sides

http://www.gbase.com/gear/guild-d-50-1968-natural - all Brazilian. The funny thing about this one is the back would have been considered an inferior grade because of the knots. Also notice the orangey red back color vs the chocolate brown on the 70 model.

LateStart · Sep 29, 2014

Friendly local guitar-store-owning expert says of the D50: sides are Braz 100%, back is highly likely. We compared it to a 1964 guitar 'known' to be Braz. Sides really no doubt. The back looks good, but I am no expert. Either way continues to sound great.

mario1956 · Sep 29, 2014

LateStart said:
Friendly local guitar-store-owning expert says of the D50: sides are Braz 100%, back is highly likely. We compared it to a 1964 guitar 'known' to be Braz. Sides really no doubt. The back looks good, but I am no expert. Either way continues to sound great.

I knew you'd like it no matter what it's made of.

1967 D50 - Am I Braz OR am I EIR (with pictures)

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