Interesting observation about NS X175

NYWolf

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So today I brought the guitar to a luthier, to replace the pickups, and since I've been telling him how much I like the neck on this one, he was very curious to see what is it all about. So he grabbed the guitar, and after just a few seconds he says the profile is such that bass side of the neck is thicker than the treble side! Talking about the back of the neck, of course, it's an uneven oval shape. I had not a slightest idea, nor could I ever tell by feel! I asked him what is that called, those kind of necks, and he couldn't tell me. If anyone knows, I'm eager to hear!

To add to it, I asked him why my American-made Starfire sounds so much sweeter acoustically/unplugged (a fact confirmed by my gf, btw, who's not a musician) than this guitar, and he told me two of the main factors are thick poly finish that Koreans use, and different type of glue, that affects the acoustic tone. But mostly finish, as I understand.

That's all, but I thought I share :)
 

bth88

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If anyone knows, I'm eager to hear!

Bad QC? Mine is not like that. I returned one X-175 because they glued the spruce top to the body off to one side almost a half inch. Also the maple stripe on the neck was also off center but that was no big deal. The problem with the top being off was that in order to compensate for it they had to lower the bridge all the way on one side, therefore you could not do anymore bridge adjustments if needed.

Is your Starfire older than the X175? Spruce opens up over time with playing, update needed in 10 years.
 
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NYWolf

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Bad QC? Mine is not like that. I returned one X-175 because they glued the spruce top to the body off to one side almost a half inch. Also the maple stripe on the neck was also off center but that was no big deal. The problem with the top being off was that in order to compensate for it they had to lower the bridge all the way on one side, therefore you could not do anymore bridge adjustments if needed.

Is your Starfire older than the X175? Spruce opens up over time with playing, update needed in 10 years.

If that's QC issue, too bad for me, I want that neck on every guitar, and what are the chances it can be replicated then?

The Starfire is 1998 or so, and as far as I know it's all maple body, no spruce. Plus, with the thick finish like on NS guitars, I doubt it will open up even in 100 years, but lets check in 10 years and see if you're right about that :) If I still have it by then, that's it.
 

MikeMcA1

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Damn, you guys a scaring me. I have one on the way. Should be here by Friday. All the reviews I've read so far say it's a THIN poly finish compared to what normally comes out of Korea. I'm not overly concerned about the acoustic sound so much as the tone amplified so figured I could overlook the poly. I got it for a reasonable price as it was an in store demo so I'm sure it'll have some wear here and there. It better not have a top glued in place that's 1/2" off though! I'll be checking it over real close.
 
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MikeMcA1

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So today I brought the guitar to a luthier, to replace the pickups, and since I've been telling him how much I like the neck on this one, he was very curious to see what is it all about. So he grabbed the guitar, and after just a few seconds he says the profile is such that bass side of the neck is thicker than the treble side! Talking about the back of the neck, of course, it's an uneven oval shape. I had not a slightest idea, nor could I ever tell by feel! I asked him what is that called, those kind of necks, and he couldn't tell me. If anyone knows, I'm eager to hear!

To add to it, I asked him why my American-made Starfire sounds so much sweeter acoustically/unplugged (a fact confirmed by my gf, btw, who's not a musician) than this guitar, and he told me two of the main factors are thick poly finish that Koreans use, and different type of glue, that affects the acoustic tone. But mostly finish, as I understand.

That's all, but I thought I share :)
I think Stevie Ray Vaughn used a similiar profile on his Strat necks. Some of the after market parts companies offer that profile.
What pickups are you replacing the stock pickups with? Just curious.
 

NYWolf

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I think Stevie Ray Vaughn used a similiar profile on his Strat necks. Some of the after market parts companies offer that profile.
What pickups are you replacing the stock pickups with? Just curious.

I'm replacing with Duncan '59. It's a project, see how they work out. It's a closest thing I could get to HB-1, or so I was led to believe. One thing for sure, I can't work with single coils, or I will be losing jobs.
 

bth88

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Damn, you guys a scaring me. I have one on the way. Should be here by Friday. All the reviews I've read so far say it's a THIN poly finish compared to what normally comes out of Korea. I'm not overly concerned about the acoustic sound so much as the tone amplified so figured I could overlook the poly. I got it for a reasonable price as it was an in store demo so I'm sure it'll have some wear here and there. It better not have a top glued in place that's 1/2" off though! I'll be checking it over real close.

I'm sure you'll be fine. As far as the finish is concerned the poly finish on my NS X-175 is ultra-thin. It's not like 1/8"-1/4" thick stuff you see on some solid bodies. FWIW the one I ended up keeping is Korean made (for Fender) at what looks like the Samick factory. Unplugged it sounds somewhere between/somewhat like a parlor - auditorium/OM sized steel acoustic with nickels on it of course. Not sure lacquer would have any effect on the tone at that thin of a finish aka there would still be sh*t on top of the spruce! I think the poly hate really comes into play when you get into thick finishes obstructing tone. I.e. you can't really build a lacquer finish up to 1/4" thick with out it looking less than desirable so there's not a lot of lacquer haters as a result. That's whole nother topic but I'll leave it at, very nice tone unplugged.
 

bth88

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If that's QC issue, too bad for me, I want that neck on every guitar, and what are the chances it can be replicated then?

You have a good luthier cast the neck shape into a template for reference and have him get a filing away! They'll need a neck that's the same size or thicker (thicker the better). Better would be to get some sort of parts-caster together and have them do it to a blank neck. They would use a contour gauge such as this below to take those measurements off the neck you love.

3.jpg
 

NYWolf

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You have a good luthier cast the neck shape into a template for reference and have him get a filing away! They'll need a neck that's the same size or thicker (thicker the better). Better would be to get some sort of parts-caster together and have them do it to a blank neck. They would use a contour gauge such as this below to take those measurements off the neck you love.

3.jpg

Right, I actually asked the luthier if he can make a copy of the guitar, knowing that he advertise himself as a guitar builder, and he said no problem. His quote is $5000. Well still cheaper than Guild Custom Shop, I guess. It's an option.
 

bth88

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^^^ $5000? Is it an archtop? A partscaster could be a fun little project and affordable... In the sense of a custom made axe, that is if you were good with going with a solid body.
 

SFIV1967

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FWIW the one I ended up keeping is Korean made (for Fender) at what looks like the Samick factory.
Are you talking about a Guild? The Newark St. models are made by SPG (Sound Professional Guitar Co, Ltd.), which is not Samick. SPG makes their own guitars and is also a manufacturer for Samick, but not Samick. Two different things. As far as I know it is only a customer-supplier relationship between Samick and SPG.
To also correct some wrong info I constantly read, Samick has never built guitars for Gretsch either as far as I know...Some Gretsch guitars were made by Peerless in Korea, and then in late 2007 (?) production was transferred to the SPG factory. (Easy to see, "KP" serial numbers are Peerless, "KS" are SPG). So regarding the Guild Newark St. models you can say it's the same factory that makes Gretsch, but it has nothing to do with Samick.
And Guild is no longer owned by FMIC but by CMG (Cordoba Music Group in Santa Monica/CA).
Ralf
 

bth88

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Are you talking about a Guild? The Newark St. models are made by SPG (Sound Professional Guitar Co, Ltd.), which is not Samick. SPG makes their own guitars and is also a manufacturer for Samick, but not Samick. Two different things. As far as I know it is only a customer-supplier relationship between Samick and SPG.
To also correct some wrong info I constantly read, Samick has never built guitars for Gretsch either as far as I know...Some Gretsch guitars were made by Peerless in Korea, and then in late 2007 (?) production was transferred to the SPG factory. (Easy to see, "KP" serial numbers are Peerless, "KS" are SPG). So regarding the Guild Newark St. models you can say it's the same factory that makes Gretsch, but it has nothing to do with Samick.
And Guild is no longer owned by FMIC but by CMG (Cordoba Music Group in Santa Monica/CA).
Ralf

Thank you for your input. Mine was purchased when Fender owned the name as I originally posted. I was also aware of the Cordoba deal before it was made public. My serial number starts with KSG, I was informed this was a Samick production serial number, looks like someone misinformed me if you are correct. Looks like I wasn't misinformed about the Cordoba deal. lol
 

Walter Broes

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that's surprising about the assymetrical neck shape, haven't noticed that one mine, but then I haven't been looking for it.

Mine has a perfectly nice neck though, l like it.

I wonder what it is about Korean hollowbodies. I mean, I used to have an X175 from around 1960, and it's very obvious that's the spec FMIC copied for the Newark Street X175. Same body shape, depth, bracing, top and back thickness is similar, same neck construction as far as you can see (the way it's attached to the neck block is anyone's guess) etc...

The main noticeable differences are indeed the finish, it's thicker than a 50 year old lacquer finish, and the neck set. The Newark street guitar's neck set is both higher and steeper. (the angle of the neck off the body is bigger, and the fretboard sits higher off the body).

Despite the very similar build, unplugged, the guitar sounds completely different. I used to have a big DeArmond hollowbody, and while I definitely like the NS guitar better, acoustically, they're very similar. It's very difficult to describe sound in words, but I'll give it shot.

The NS guitar is plenty loud, I'll give it that. I'll attribute that to it not being built too stiff and tight, and the big neck angle. But there's something about it, there's a blurry-ness, a loose-ness that's not pretty. The vintage guitar sounded a lot more defined, a lot more definition in chords as well as single notes, the treble was both pointier ànd prettier, the midrange was beautiful and probably the main component, but in a very pleasing way, and while the bass was strong and big as you'd expect from a fairly big body guitar, it was a lot more controlled and control-able than on the NS guitar.

The vintage 175, for lack of a better description was "dry" sounding, and "woodier". The new copy has more of a blur, cloud, brash "whomp" to it when you strum it, and the bass is big but less defined, the midrange again is the main component but it's uglier, and the treble has a nastier midrangey edge to it too, and compared to the old guitar(s), no real acoustic-y treble, feels muted somehow in the real high end.

And all of this translates into the plugged in sound of the guitar too. I've had the pickups rewound, and as I reported on here, it does sound better. It has clearer, better treble than with the stockers that's not hidden by the "too much midrange" they used to have.

And for the life of me, I don't know what causes the difference in sound, and the similarity in that respect of the DeArmond archtop and the Newark Street Guild.
Could a large part of that really be the finish?!?!? I guess it could be, but it would really blow my mind a little if a finish did that much to the sound of a guitar.

If sanding a polyester based finish off an arched surface wasn't such a PITA, I guess I'd be up for the experiment, I've been learning to finish guitars in Nitro with my telecaster/partscaster builds, but I really don't feel like doing all the work of stripping a 17" archtop. No way - it's not THAT interesting to me.

Interestingly....I recently lucked into a "lawsuit era" (early/mid 70's) Ibanez Gibson ES175 copy. It was too cheap to resist, and the previous owner converted it to Lollar P90's instead of the stock humbuckers, so it was really calling my name. Thing is probably about 35 to 40 years old, made in Japan, finished in fairly thick polyester that has long checks and stress cracks in it, and guess what......none of the complaints I have with the recent Korean guitars! While it doesn't sound as sweet as my buddy's mid-fifties Gibson ES175, it undeniably sounds better than the Korean guitars...unplugged ànd plugged in. Go figure...maybe a guitar really needs at least a couple of decades on it before it starts sounding good?

Sorry for the long ramble.
 
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jcwu

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Go figure...maybe a guitar really needs at least a couple of decades on it before it starts sounding good?

Sorry for the long ramble.

Your "long ramble" (which was more like a "good read" to me) might be the most hands-on description of a guitar opening up with age. I know there's lots of debates about whether that's really true, but your story seems to support that. And I don't see you as someone who would "hear" a new guitar differently simply because it's new.
 

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From what I've read, the best way to take off a poly finish is with a heatgun. When I get some debt taken care of, I'd like to get a NS SFlll, take the poly off and insert these reissue Franzes.

Not something that's going to be happening anytime soon, I'm afraid.
 

NYWolf

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that's surprising about the assymetrical neck shape, haven't noticed that one mine, but then I haven't been looking for it.

Mine has a perfectly nice neck though, l like it.

I wonder what it is about Korean hollowbodies. I mean, I used to have an X175 from around 1960, and it's very obvious that's the spec FMIC copied for the Newark Street X175. Same body shape, depth, bracing, top and back thickness is similar, same neck construction as far as you can see (the way it's attached to the neck block is anyone's guess) etc...

The main noticeable differences are indeed the finish, it's thicker than a 50 year old lacquer finish, and the neck set. The Newark street guitar's neck set is both higher and steeper. (the angle of the neck off the body is bigger, and the fretboard sits higher off the body).

Despite the very similar build, unplugged, the guitar sounds completely different. I used to have a big DeArmond hollowbody, and while I definitely like the NS guitar better, acoustically, they're very similar. It's very difficult to describe sound in words, but I'll give it shot.

The NS guitar is plenty loud, I'll give it that. I'll attribute that to it not being built too stiff and tight, and the big neck angle. But there's something about it, there's a blurry-ness, a loose-ness that's not pretty. The vintage guitar sounded a lot more defined, a lot more definition in chords as well as single notes, the treble was both pointier ànd prettier, the midrange was beautiful and probably the main component, but in a very pleasing way, and while the bass was strong and big as you'd expect from a fairly big body guitar, it was a lot more controlled and control-able than on the NS guitar.

The vintage 175, for lack of a better description was "dry" sounding, and "woodier". The new copy has more of a blur, cloud, brash "whomp" to it when you strum it, and the bass is big but less defined, the midrange again is the main component but it's uglier, and the treble has a nastier midrangey edge to it too, and compared to the old guitar(s), no real acoustic-y treble, feels muted somehow in the real high end.

And all of this translates into the plugged in sound of the guitar too. I've had the pickups rewound, and as I reported on here, it does sound better. It has clearer, better treble than with the stockers that's not hidden by the "too much midrange" they used to have.

And for the life of me, I don't know what causes the difference in sound, and the similarity in that respect of the DeArmond archtop and the Newark Street Guild.
Could a large part of that really be the finish?!?!? I guess it could be, but it would really blow my mind a little if a finish did that much to the sound of a guitar.

If sanding a polyester based finish off an arched surface wasn't such a PITA, I guess I'd be up for the experiment, I've been learning to finish guitars in Nitro with my telecaster/partscaster builds, but I really don't feel like doing all the work of stripping a 17" archtop. No way - it's not THAT interesting to me.

Interestingly....I recently lucked into a "lawsuit era" (early/mid 70's) Ibanez Gibson ES175 copy. It was too cheap to resist, and the previous owner converted it to Lollar P90's instead of the stock humbuckers, so it was really calling my name. Thing is probably about 35 to 40 years old, made in Japan, finished in fairly thick polyester that has long checks and stress cracks in it, and guess what......none of the complaints I have with the recent Korean guitars! While it doesn't sound as sweet as my buddy's mid-fifties Gibson ES175, it undeniably sounds better than the Korean guitars...unplugged ànd plugged in. Go figure...maybe a guitar really needs at least a couple of decades on it before it starts sounding good?

Sorry for the long ramble.

No sorry at all, great post, great description, thanks! EXACTLY how I hear it too, only I don't have a vintage X175, but I was comparing it to 1998 Starfire, which is not exactly vintage, right? And the difference in acoustic sound is quite obvious. It's like the Starfire has a full open voice, and the NS just sounds dull and subdued (my gf words, English is her 1st language). I'm sorry, I'm not buying that theory that a guitar can go from dull and subdued to a beautiful tone with the age. It sure can get better, but not by that margin.

As a player, my experience is with the Starfire I just can't sound bad, there's no struggle to play whatsoever, everything comes out nice, even the mistakes. Too bad I can't get alone with the neck, but that's other story. With NS, the playability is perfect, but it's always a bit of a struggle tone wise, just to get those notes off the ground. Hard to put it in words, but maybe you know what i'm talking about.
 

bth88

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And for the life of me, I don't know what causes the difference in sound, and the similarity in that respect of the DeArmond archtop and the Newark Street Guild.
Could a large part of that really be the finish?!?!? I guess it could be, but it would really blow my mind a little if a finish did that much to the sound of a guitar.

If sanding a polyester based finish off an arched surface wasn't such a PITA, I guess I'd be up for the experiment, I've been learning to finish guitars in Nitro with my telecaster/partscaster builds, but I really don't feel like doing all the work of stripping a 17" archtop. No way - it's not THAT interesting to me.

There's also a lot more at play than a top coat on a guitar here. Exact types of woods and construction for instance? To add your old guitars were likely made out of old growth trees that had way better tonal properties than what's being harvested today. You're old guitar's woods have mellowed considerably over time, have had proper or improper humidification, stresses, lack of, etc. etc. etc. It's not going to be the same guitar, sanding it down is never going to make it be.
 
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Walter Broes

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I do realize that there's probably a lot more going on than the finish, which is one of the many reasons I won't attempt the experiment of removing it - it's a lot more fun playing the things anyway!
 
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