12 string Guilds
- Thread starter GaryG
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Having owned a bunch of Guild 12ers from various eras, I can say that the best one I've owned in my current F512 for the New Hartford plant. It has a bit slimmer neck profile that appeals to me (YMMV), and has the most almighty sound you could ever imagine. Next in line were a pair of post-Fender Westerly models; a late '90s JF65-12 (same as an F412) now living with default, and a '96 D25-12 now living with a close friend. Best bang for the buck goes to the D25-12, and honorable mention goes to Chazmo's Tacoma-made F512, and also my ex '77 F212XL now living in Australia with SouthernGuild.
If you budget allows, go for an F412 or F512. They are truly the granddaddies of all 12 string guitars. Hard to go wrong with just about any of them though, as long as they have a good neck set and no structural problems. Bear in mind that due to the stresses of twice as many strings, 12ers are a lot more prone to structural issues, so choose carefully!
davismanLV
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twocorgis has pretty much covered it all above. There's some really great 12's from most of the decades from Guild. I'll just reiterate the stress of 12 strings vs. 6 strings and the likelihood that the neck angle may need some work. I take a straight edge with me to all guitar evaluations. If you need some help in determining when a guitar is in "neck reset territory", I'll provide the link to Frank Ford's awesome site, and specifically to the neck angle evaluation chapter.
Good luck with your search!!
http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Musician/Guitar/Setup/NeckAngle/neckangle.html
Good luck with your search!!
http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Musician/Guitar/Setup/NeckAngle/neckangle.html
Neal
Senior Member
First of all, congratulations on the Mark V and welcome to the club.
I currently own two Guild 12-strings, and they are significantly different:
1. An '81 D-212, referred to by twocorgis above as the D-25-12. Same guitar, but for some reason called the D-212 from '81 to '87, when the name was changed to the D-25-12. Fantastic 12 for the money (and in the interest of full disclosure, I have mine for sale over in FS/FT). It has a warm tone consistent with it's arch-back mahogany body. It is a tobacco sunburst, a little understated in the "bling" department compared to the higher end F-412 and F-512, although it does have an inlaid Chesterfield head stock and a fully bound body (black with white accent).
2. An '03 F-412, maple sunburst arch-back with all of the bling someone could ever desire, including the G Shield head stock, abalone fretboard inlay, full binding of body, neck and headstock. But forget all that. The F-412 just sings. Bright, much brighter than the D-212, and holds onto a note for a year. Hard to put down. More expensive.
There are also some other great choices:
F-512, which is the rosewood version of the F-412, considered by many (except, perhaps F-412 owners!) as the finest 12-string guitar money can buy.
F-212 and F-212XL, in mahogany. F-212 is 16" across the lower bout, while the XL is an inch larger. Lots of fans here.
F-112, a small, orchestra-sized 12-string. Lots of fans as well.
G-212, a version of the rosewood D-50 dreadnought.
G-312, a version of the mahogany D-40 dread.
I am probably missing a few. Collectively, Guild 12-strings are the industry standard, and have been for a very, very long time.
Neal
'71 D-25
'73 D-35
'81 D-212
'03 F-412
'12 F-50 Std
'13 M-120
'13 F-47R
'13 Orpheum 12-fret D
'14 Orpheum 12-fret 000 R
I currently own two Guild 12-strings, and they are significantly different:
1. An '81 D-212, referred to by twocorgis above as the D-25-12. Same guitar, but for some reason called the D-212 from '81 to '87, when the name was changed to the D-25-12. Fantastic 12 for the money (and in the interest of full disclosure, I have mine for sale over in FS/FT). It has a warm tone consistent with it's arch-back mahogany body. It is a tobacco sunburst, a little understated in the "bling" department compared to the higher end F-412 and F-512, although it does have an inlaid Chesterfield head stock and a fully bound body (black with white accent).
2. An '03 F-412, maple sunburst arch-back with all of the bling someone could ever desire, including the G Shield head stock, abalone fretboard inlay, full binding of body, neck and headstock. But forget all that. The F-412 just sings. Bright, much brighter than the D-212, and holds onto a note for a year. Hard to put down. More expensive.
There are also some other great choices:
F-512, which is the rosewood version of the F-412, considered by many (except, perhaps F-412 owners!) as the finest 12-string guitar money can buy.
F-212 and F-212XL, in mahogany. F-212 is 16" across the lower bout, while the XL is an inch larger. Lots of fans here.
F-112, a small, orchestra-sized 12-string. Lots of fans as well.
G-212, a version of the rosewood D-50 dreadnought.
G-312, a version of the mahogany D-40 dread.
I am probably missing a few. Collectively, Guild 12-strings are the industry standard, and have been for a very, very long time.
Neal
'71 D-25
'73 D-35
'81 D-212
'03 F-412
'12 F-50 Std
'13 M-120
'13 F-47R
'13 Orpheum 12-fret D
'14 Orpheum 12-fret 000 R
Congratulations, Gary, on your Mark V.
Others have given some great advice on our beloved brand's 12 strings, and what to watch for/expect in selecting an older guitar.
You may want to consider expanding your search to include the 70's as well as the 80's (of course, if you can find one from the 60's that is cool, too.) While not comprehensive, here is an idea of the 12 strings from the 70's and 80's (perhaps others can expound on/correct the listing):
Jumbo body shape:
F-512 (Rosewood back and sides, spruce top, G-shield headstock, block markers)
F-412 (Archback Maple back and sides, spruce top, G-shield headstock, block markers)
F-312 (Slightly smaller Rosewood back and sides, spruce top, Chesterfield headstock, side dot markers)
F-212XL (Mahogany back and sides, spruce top, Chesterfield headstock, side dot markers)
F-212 (Slightly smaller Mahogany back and sides, spruce top, Chesterfield headstock, side dot markers)
F-112 (Even smaller Mahogany back and sides, spruce top, Chesterfield headstock, side dot markers)
Dreadnought body shape:
G-312 (Rosewood back and sides, spruce top, Chesterfield headstock)
G-212 (Mahogany back and sides, spruce top, Chesterfield headstock)
D-312 (Rosewood back and sides, spruce top, Chesterfield headstock)
D-212 (Archback Mahogany back and sides, spruce top, Chesterfield headstock)
D-25/12 (replaced D-212)
D-225 (replaced D-25/12)
D-15/12 (Archback Mahogany back and sides, Mahogany top,Chesterfield headstock)
D-17/12 (Archback Mahogany back and sides, Mahogany top, Chesterfield headstock)
D-4/12 (Mahogany back and sides, Chesterfield headstock, dot markers)
The 80's saw the introduction of the "JF" and the "GF" (Gruhn) naming conventions, which takes some getting used to but added 12 strings to the mix, some having fewer appointments and some being new designs:
JF-65R/12 (F-512 "new and improved")
JF-65/12 (F-412)
JF-55/12 (replaced JF-65R/12)
JF-50/12 (Rosewood back and sides, spruce top, Chesterfield headstock, dot markers)
JF-30/12 (Archback Maple back and sides, spruce top, Chesterfield headstock, dot markers)
GF-50/12 (Slightly smaller Rosewood back and sides, spruce top, Chesterfield headstock (snakehead), dot markers)
Others have given some great advice on our beloved brand's 12 strings, and what to watch for/expect in selecting an older guitar.
You may want to consider expanding your search to include the 70's as well as the 80's (of course, if you can find one from the 60's that is cool, too.) While not comprehensive, here is an idea of the 12 strings from the 70's and 80's (perhaps others can expound on/correct the listing):
Jumbo body shape:
F-512 (Rosewood back and sides, spruce top, G-shield headstock, block markers)
F-412 (Archback Maple back and sides, spruce top, G-shield headstock, block markers)
F-312 (Slightly smaller Rosewood back and sides, spruce top, Chesterfield headstock, side dot markers)
F-212XL (Mahogany back and sides, spruce top, Chesterfield headstock, side dot markers)
F-212 (Slightly smaller Mahogany back and sides, spruce top, Chesterfield headstock, side dot markers)
F-112 (Even smaller Mahogany back and sides, spruce top, Chesterfield headstock, side dot markers)
Dreadnought body shape:
G-312 (Rosewood back and sides, spruce top, Chesterfield headstock)
G-212 (Mahogany back and sides, spruce top, Chesterfield headstock)
D-312 (Rosewood back and sides, spruce top, Chesterfield headstock)
D-212 (Archback Mahogany back and sides, spruce top, Chesterfield headstock)
D-25/12 (replaced D-212)
D-225 (replaced D-25/12)
D-15/12 (Archback Mahogany back and sides, Mahogany top,Chesterfield headstock)
D-17/12 (Archback Mahogany back and sides, Mahogany top, Chesterfield headstock)
D-4/12 (Mahogany back and sides, Chesterfield headstock, dot markers)
The 80's saw the introduction of the "JF" and the "GF" (Gruhn) naming conventions, which takes some getting used to but added 12 strings to the mix, some having fewer appointments and some being new designs:
JF-65R/12 (F-512 "new and improved")
JF-65/12 (F-412)
JF-55/12 (replaced JF-65R/12)
JF-50/12 (Rosewood back and sides, spruce top, Chesterfield headstock, dot markers)
JF-30/12 (Archback Maple back and sides, spruce top, Chesterfield headstock, dot markers)
GF-50/12 (Slightly smaller Rosewood back and sides, spruce top, Chesterfield headstock (snakehead), dot markers)
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charliea
Senior Member
Regardless of the era, there are some constants. Nobody's 12-string, nowhere, nohow, sounds better than an F412 or F512, depending on your preference. The 412 has a very balanced, smooth sound (for a 12-string) while the 512 is exceptionally bright and loud. The other two jumbos are the JF30-12 (a de-blinged 412) and F212XL which is mahogany and has a gutsy, blues kind of growl.
The G312 is cream of the 'dread crop, with a big punch but good balance. The 'hog dreads (in my experience) have a powerful kind of quacky bass that would have convinced Leadbelly to get rid of that Stella, had the Guild been available.
I've owned an F112, which is surprisingly strong for it's size and fun to play, but never tried an F312 or F212, so can't comment.
I agree with Sandy that the New Hartford 12's can't be beat, and the market being what it is, can be had at very reasonable prices, often lower than older Guilds.
The G312 is cream of the 'dread crop, with a big punch but good balance. The 'hog dreads (in my experience) have a powerful kind of quacky bass that would have convinced Leadbelly to get rid of that Stella, had the Guild been available.
I've owned an F112, which is surprisingly strong for it's size and fun to play, but never tried an F312 or F212, so can't comment.
I agree with Sandy that the New Hartford 12's can't be beat, and the market being what it is, can be had at very reasonable prices, often lower than older Guilds.
Neal
Senior Member
Pretty comprehensive, Christopher.
The history of the arch-backed mahogany dread 12-string is particularly head-scratching. Guild began production of the D-212 in '81. It was renamed the D-25-12 in 1987, and then renamed again as the D-225 in '98! Same specs from '81 to '99.
Not to be confused with the D-15-12 and its gussied up twin, the D-17-12 (both produced only from '83-'87) which were of a similar mahogany arch-back design, but with a mahogany top as well, as opposed to the spruce top on the D-212/D-25-12/D-225.
Guild never made it simple to keep track of their naming convention!
Neal
The history of the arch-backed mahogany dread 12-string is particularly head-scratching. Guild began production of the D-212 in '81. It was renamed the D-25-12 in 1987, and then renamed again as the D-225 in '98! Same specs from '81 to '99.
Not to be confused with the D-15-12 and its gussied up twin, the D-17-12 (both produced only from '83-'87) which were of a similar mahogany arch-back design, but with a mahogany top as well, as opposed to the spruce top on the D-212/D-25-12/D-225.
Guild never made it simple to keep track of their naming convention!
Neal
Do I interpret correctly from your signature that you have both a F412 and F512 from New Hartford? I am really struggling on which one to get. I have played a New Hartford F412 and a '79 Westerly F512 but have never seen both a F412 & F512 from any era in the same room. I have given up on finding a dealer that has a New Hartford example of each. It's probably hard to go wrong with either. There seem to be many more F512 for sale.
Any thing else you can impart about the 412 vs 512?
Thanks
Good timing – I guess – that this thread appeared not long before my first post.
I received a new New Hartford F-512 yesterday.
What a magnificent instrument. The tone is THE TONE.
I had it shipped to my office, and after going through a few steps with a couple of my own tunes, I played 'Behind Blue Eyes' and 'Wish You Were Here' just for fun. Like I said, the tone is THE TONE: Incredibly powerful, warm, balanced, focused and articulated at the same time, as well as having a very distinctive 'chime' not found in any other 12er I've ever heard. In some ways it's like a 6-string in overdrive in that, unlike many 12ers you hear, the individual strings don't get lost in excessively shimmery and jangly sonics. There seems to be very little of what might be phase cancellation in the microvibrating of the strings, so the music-to-noise ratio is nearly all music.
And then there's the volume . . . about which I’m guessing I need say little, except that when I got home (don't try this at work) it was loud from the getgo and, maybe it was my imagination, but the guitar seemed to open up and get ever louder as the evening went on.
Lastly, as with all the most iconic guitars and their tones which echo on through great music, you really feel like your playing a little piece of history when you’re strumming on an F-512.
I should say that I had the benefit of A/B-ing the F-512 with my Taylor 855ce, whose tusq nut and saddle I replaced with pre-ban ivory versions some years ago, a change which produced a noticeable warming and deepening of the tone that has increased with time. It too is a truly wonderful guitar, with its neck, action, intonation, ability to stay in tune, and general playability truly second to none.
That said, the piano and harpsichord analogy seems apt, with the F-512 like the most powerful, resonant combination of concert grand and barrelhouse anyone’s ever heard. The 855ce actually faired better than I thought it would, both live and recorded. But at the end of the day, the 855ce simply doesn’t have the power, balance, focus, etc. that the F-512 does. And in terms of the music-to-noise ratio the Taylor, when played at volume, is more diffuse, shimmery, jangly, etc. and less musical. So the difference is not just a quantitative one, but a qualitative one. Still, I can say that for some kinds of music I play the 855ce will be better suited than the F-512, in some cases because it has the cutaway.
BTW – I also watched the video made in the New Hartford shop the night before last. How sad that it has closed, given that you could see the real love, devotion and sense of purposes those guys and that one gal had. I sure hope Cordoba fully honors the Guild tradition. I’ve already started gassing for one of the New Hartford six-strings.
Anyway, I feel very grateful to finally have a Guild F-512.
Almost forgot – one question: does anyone have any suggestions for a premium case? The TKL alligator case is funky, but I’d like to get something more substantial. I have a pretty good SKB molded case I keep the 855ce in, but the F-512’s upper bout actually won’t fit into it . . . Thanks, Scott
I received a new New Hartford F-512 yesterday.
What a magnificent instrument. The tone is THE TONE.
I had it shipped to my office, and after going through a few steps with a couple of my own tunes, I played 'Behind Blue Eyes' and 'Wish You Were Here' just for fun. Like I said, the tone is THE TONE: Incredibly powerful, warm, balanced, focused and articulated at the same time, as well as having a very distinctive 'chime' not found in any other 12er I've ever heard. In some ways it's like a 6-string in overdrive in that, unlike many 12ers you hear, the individual strings don't get lost in excessively shimmery and jangly sonics. There seems to be very little of what might be phase cancellation in the microvibrating of the strings, so the music-to-noise ratio is nearly all music.
And then there's the volume . . . about which I’m guessing I need say little, except that when I got home (don't try this at work) it was loud from the getgo and, maybe it was my imagination, but the guitar seemed to open up and get ever louder as the evening went on.
Lastly, as with all the most iconic guitars and their tones which echo on through great music, you really feel like your playing a little piece of history when you’re strumming on an F-512.
I should say that I had the benefit of A/B-ing the F-512 with my Taylor 855ce, whose tusq nut and saddle I replaced with pre-ban ivory versions some years ago, a change which produced a noticeable warming and deepening of the tone that has increased with time. It too is a truly wonderful guitar, with its neck, action, intonation, ability to stay in tune, and general playability truly second to none.
That said, the piano and harpsichord analogy seems apt, with the F-512 like the most powerful, resonant combination of concert grand and barrelhouse anyone’s ever heard. The 855ce actually faired better than I thought it would, both live and recorded. But at the end of the day, the 855ce simply doesn’t have the power, balance, focus, etc. that the F-512 does. And in terms of the music-to-noise ratio the Taylor, when played at volume, is more diffuse, shimmery, jangly, etc. and less musical. So the difference is not just a quantitative one, but a qualitative one. Still, I can say that for some kinds of music I play the 855ce will be better suited than the F-512, in some cases because it has the cutaway.
BTW – I also watched the video made in the New Hartford shop the night before last. How sad that it has closed, given that you could see the real love, devotion and sense of purposes those guys and that one gal had. I sure hope Cordoba fully honors the Guild tradition. I’ve already started gassing for one of the New Hartford six-strings.
Anyway, I feel very grateful to finally have a Guild F-512.
Almost forgot – one question: does anyone have any suggestions for a premium case? The TKL alligator case is funky, but I’d like to get something more substantial. I have a pretty good SKB molded case I keep the 855ce in, but the F-512’s upper bout actually won’t fit into it . . . Thanks, Scott
I had heard great things about the Taylor 855. I can not figure out why their jumbo line was discontinued. The X55 is the only non-Guild on my 12 string short list. However, I am leaning heavily toward a new Hartford F-512. How does your 512 play compared with the 855?
stealyerface
Junior Member
http://rochester.craigslist.org/msd/4719182344.html
Not sure where you are looking as far as the era goes, but I have seen this is person. No affiliation, but it looks like a pretty nice guitar. Price? I am not up on 12'ers, but it seems in the ballpark?
~syf
Not sure where you are looking as far as the era goes, but I have seen this is person. No affiliation, but it looks like a pretty nice guitar. Price? I am not up on 12'ers, but it seems in the ballpark?
~syf
stealyerface
Junior Member
Sorry, did not see the update from the 2nd post... If someone needs to delete the comment above, go for it.
~syf
~syf
davismanLV
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I kinda skimmed through to see if anyone answered your NT question, and I don't see one, but forgive the repeat if it's already been covered. NT means Natural Top. This is to distinguish it from AB (Antique Burst) or ITB (Iced Tea Burst). Usually means the guitar has been finished in clear lacquer with no tone added and no burst. Hope that helps.
That makes too much sense. Thanks
charliea
Senior Member
I don't need another guitar, but if I did I'd buy this one in a heartbeat. Good deal, assuming the neck angle is OK.
About the discontinuation of the jumbo line, I'm not sure whether that's permanent. The new main designer there -- presuming he still is there, I think his name is Andy Powers -- may be re-jigging the bracing and other factors like top thickness, etc. They came out with a few new guitars a year or two ago (I forget the model numbers, but I think it might be X58), and maybe they'll reintroduce a new X55. However, I have to say that I played one of the new guitars and have also watched a few vids and, to my ears, the tone still sounds typically Taylor thin. I can't say for sure, though, because other than my 855ce, I played enough Taylors some years ago to know that I'm not interested in them due to the tone.
When it comes to playability, however, Taylors in general are the best I've personally played by far. With regard to 12-strings, I've never played another that even comes close to my 855ce, and that includes the new F-512. As noted in my previous post, the neck, action, intonation, tuning are unmatched by anything else I've tried. When other people play it they often say that it's better than most 6-strings. That's what Taylor is known for. The F-512, by comparison, has a chunkier neck which, however, feels absolutely solid like a super strong spine. With the two truss rods, and the other stabilizing rod you just get the sense that there's this great potential energy and foundation built right into the neck and the guitar as a whole. Amazing integrity of design and construction.
All that said, I'm not sure what your priority is. Fine playability is a wonderful thing in a 12-string. However, I must say that if I had to sell either the 855ce or the new F-512, I would -- as much as I've loved the 855ce for about 5 years -- sell it and keep F-512 which I've had for 2 days. No question.
So, bottom line: if I was you I would go for the F-512. The playability is very, very good but, first and foremost, the tone is THEE TONE -- archetypal and, as far as I know, unmatched by anything else.
Hope that helps . . .
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Forgot to include in my previous post:
One other comparable alternative -- although they too were discontinued, are now next to impossible to find, and would probably cost you twice what a new F-512 would be -- is a Martin Grand 12-40E. They were in production for a year or two, and only 413 or something were made. Everyone who has one or played one seems to love them. I never played one so I can't comment. If you're interested you can find links to stores that used to carry them, as well as to vids of people playing them.
One other comparable alternative -- although they too were discontinued, are now next to impossible to find, and would probably cost you twice what a new F-512 would be -- is a Martin Grand 12-40E. They were in production for a year or two, and only 413 or something were made. Everyone who has one or played one seems to love them. I never played one so I can't comment. If you're interested you can find links to stores that used to carry them, as well as to vids of people playing them.
charliea
Senior Member
Gibson holds that sustain is largely determined by neck attachment. A set neck, they say, gives much more sustain than a bolt-on. I don't know, personally, but it's entirely possible that the thin tone lots of people ascribe to Taylors is due to neck attachment. Gibson also holds that finish is a major factor in tone, and that poly finishes will never sound as good as lacquer or, I would suppose, varnish. Makes sense to me, but again, I don't know. Kottke has been known to sand the finish off a guitar to open up the sound, and I guess he should know. Maybe. Of course he plays Taylors, but plugged-in, so it doesn't count. On the other hand, Gibson is in competition with Taylor. Whatever.