Action, before doing anything stupid

Hi

I've noticed that action is quite high on my F30. I've been changing the strings a lot to find the perfect set and I have now GHS vintage medium gauge BUT a full step below concert pitch. I guess normal pitch would mean even higher action?

Here is how I took measurement for the bass E. Action is almost 4mm (1/6 inch)







Is sanding the saddle the solution? I'm not sure I have a lot of margin to sand enough enough.

Bigger pics:

http://i.imgur.com/F2NnQyr.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/wMZ9lSp.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/lAWQBpu.jpg

Action is generally measured from the top of the fret to the bottom of the string.

There is a neat little device from Stewmac you can get for better action measurement: http://www.stewmac.com/Luthier_Tools/Tools_by_Job/Measuring/String_Action_Gauge.html

Lighter gauge strings or tuning down may drop it slightly but are a workaround and not as solution.
If you have some relief in the neck a truss rod adjust may help a little.
If you have some spare saddle height then you can take it out & sand down the bottom & that can help.

After that it probably gets hairy - sanding down the bridge itself to make it thinner (I think the bridge is taken off, the bottom sanded & then re-glued). This is possible but to me seems like a delaying action for the dreaded neck reset (dreaded because of the expense but often the best solution).

There's a few actual luthiers here who are better qualified to give you advice. You might want to take it to a local professional you trust for an opinion & get an idea of cost.

We really need to see the height of the strings at the saddle.

Keep in mind that if you lower the saddle you need to multiply the amount of the saddle material to be removed times 2. That is, if you want the action 1/16" inch lower at the 12th fret, you need to lower the saddle 1/8". (Sand the saddle from the bottom.)

If you don't have at least 1/8" saddle showing, you may not be able to lower it enough to make a difference, in which case, a neck reset is probably your best bet, so long as the the guitar is worth the investment to you.

You *can* sand the bridge (people generally sand the bridge at the top, not the bottom) but it's not recommended, as removing mass from the bridge may affect the sound of the guitar.

Check Youtube -- there's a how-to for pretty much any repair you're thinking of undertaking.

Good luck!

Saddle and trust rod adjustment the solution here. If you got some saddle to give, you should be ok.

On a related note, Joe suggested I drop the BR a full step and capo 2 in an attempt to salvage my Guild dread fascination. Not only did that advise cure my ill, I now play the BR exclusively in full step down without a capo. That action came down too. It was, in the best way, the perfect storm.

If I am not mistaken, this is a new Guild, correct?

I don't like to give up saddle height unless I absolutely have to.

I would check your neck relief before doing anything more drastic. Try tightening the truss rod 1/4 turn to the right (you should have a truss rood wrench in the case pocket). If you get string buzz, you have tightened too much. IF the action is still too high, try another 1/4 turn until you hit the sweet spot.

I would also switch to light strings, which are the proper specification for the F-30.

Occasionally, a new Guild will ship with a nut that is cut fairly shallow. If the truss rod adjustment does not do the trick, take the guitar to a competent luthier for assistance. It is money well spent for a proper set-up.

Neal

Thank you for these very instructive answers, as usual.

The reason that I put medium gauge is that, considering I need to be one full tone below standard for vocal reasons (I cannot sing The Boxer at concert pitch for example), I wanted to eliminate fret buzz. I still have some but can manage with that.
Is it a problem to have this configuration with the F30? I thought that it would give similar tension than lights with standard tuning.

Yes this the new guitar Neal (which stayed in stock during 4 years and required to get the bridge reglued by my luthier). So having a neck reset would be a very bad news!

Zelja I've ordered a similar tool: http://tinyurl.com/kcr4bnl
I made a wrong measurement I think. From fret to bottom of string it is a little bit more than 2mm (probably 3/32 inch). I can now wonder if there is really an issue! But I need to wait for that tool to give you exact measure.

Wiley, does these pictures help for your analysis?



Thanks

NG, that saddle is not tall, by any means. But it's not horribly low either. On a new or fairly new guitar, I might expect it to be a bit taller. Get yourself a 24" straight edge. A good metal one. Lay it on the fretboard and slide it down to the bridge. The bottom of the straight edge should be at the top of the bridge. It can fall a little bit lower, but if it's halfway down the bridge or more, you're in neck reset territory. Go to Frank Ford's site and see the technique for this test. It's easy and it will tell you a LOT!

http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Musician/Guitar/Setup/NeckAngle/neckangle.html

IMO (and take it with a grain of salt as I'm just going by the pics) you don't have enough saddle left to make a huge difference.

It looks like you could safely take off 1/16" from the bottom of the saddle, but that will only bring the action at the 12th fret down by 1/32".

You can try this experiment to see if this will help, before doing anything you can't undo.

1. Capo the strings to hold them in place.

2. Loosen the strings.

3. Take the ball ends of the strings out of the bridge and the pull out your saddle.

4. Cover the saddle slot with a popsicle stick and lightly tape the ends down to keep it from moving.

5. Replace the strings and tune to pitch. (Replacing just the two E strings may be enough to tell you what you want to know.)

A popsicle stick is approximately 1/16" thick, and should tell you whether lowering the strings that much will give you the playability you want.

If it does, measure 1/16" on the bottom of your saddle, mark it with a rule line, and sand it down to just shy of the pencil line. (Don't sand out the pencil line.) Work slowly and make sure you keep the saddle at a 90 degree angle to your sanding plane so you keep the bottom of the saddle flat.

You can also use popsicle sticks for actual saddles and resize them so as to be able to experiment with different heights. If the sticks are narrower than your saddle slot, you can thicken them with a layer or two of masking tape.

Good luck!

davismanLV said:

Get yourself a 24" straight edge. A good metal one. Lay it on the fretboard and slide it down to the bridge. The bottom of the straight edge should be at the top of the bridge. It can fall a little bit lower, but if it's halfway down the bridge or more, you're in neck reset territory.

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Just make the test (straight edge was not easy to get). I am 2mm below bridge "corner". 5/64 inch.

Am I in the red zone you mention Tom?

Action measurement still pending.

Neal said:

I don't like to give up saddle height unless I absolutely have to.

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AGREE 100%

Neal said:

I would check your neck relief before doing anything more drastic. Try tightening the truss rod 1/4 turn to the right (you should have a truss rood wrench in the case pocket). If you get string buzz, you have tightened too much. IF the action is still too high, try another 1/4 turn until you hit the sweet spot.

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I agree I've tweaked my "action" very slightly via the russ rod but I don't think you'll get even a full 1/64" that way.

Neal said:

I would also switch to light strings, which are the proper specification for the F-30.

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Notguildy said:

The reason that I put medium gauge is that, considering I need to be one full tone below standard for vocal reasons (I cannot sing The Boxer at concert pitch for example), I wanted to eliminate fret buzz. I still have some but can manage with that.
Is it a problem to have this configuration with the F30? I thought that it would give similar tension than lights with standard tuning.

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While I understand and am sympathetic to the idea, the lowered mediums may still have too much tension. There are charts, on D'Addario's site, for instance, showing what tensions are for both individual strings and full sets, but I don't remember if they show tension for strings dropped by a full tone.

Notguildy said:

Just make the test (straight edge was not easy to get). I am 2mm below bridge "corner". 5/64 inch.
Am I in the red zone you mention Tom?

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What I'm thinking is possibly the top is thin enough to be deflected by the extra tension and this is also pulling the bridge towards the towards the headstock (causing the strightedge test to fall below the crown of the bridge). I wouldn't call that "the red zone", it might even have been built that way.
But yeah it would bum me out a little and it limits how much you can lower the saddle to fine tune the action to your personal preference, and not worry about the bridge.
If you can see a little "dip" between the bridge and the sound hole, that might be a sign that string tension is too high, but a very slight dip can be normal. (Actually your pics look very good on that, it looks flat, but recently I've seen just how deceptive photos can be)
Another possibility is that somehow the bridge was actually raised slightly when your luthier re-glued it? I'd for sure ask him.
Also, didn't you get a UST intsalled? Ask him if it's possible the installation resulted in a slightly raised bridge height.
It's even possible the bridge was built a little bit tall. Then shaving a little bit is actually the ideal solution.
It will give you back saddle height to use with for lowering the action while keeping good break angle.
The bridge not only seats the saddle, but its mass affects how energy gets to the top. Too much mass is almost as bad as too little mass, and that's why shaving the bridge is generally avoided.
Also, it can lose structural integrity around the saddle slot. If it's too shallow the saddle can start to lean. If you deepen the slot, it could split. So shaving an already ideally sized bridge should be avoided.

Notguildy said:

I made a wrong measurement I think. From fret to bottom of string it is a little bit more than 2mm (probably 3/32 inch). I can now wonder if there is really an issue!

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Sounds like you already realize that Guild's last published specs for action height were in fact 6/64" on bass E and 5/64ths on treble. 3/32=6/64.
There was a "tolerance" of .5/64th (half a 64th, or 1/128th) and I always forget which way it went, but still, if you're at 5 and 6/64ths you're within 1/128" of factory setup specs. Some people do consider those specs to be "high" but it's good to know you're actually right where Guild built it.

wileypickett said:

If you don't have at least 1/8" saddle showing, you may not be able to lower it enough to make a difference

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The rule of thumb is that the ideal combined height of bridge and saddle is about 1/2". This allows the best transfer of energy from the strings into the top. The "ideal" saddle height of 1/8"' also creates a good "break angle" of the strings over the saddle. Again, the issue is energy transfer through the saddle to the bridge, then the bridge plate, into the top.
If your saddle is actually 5 or 6/16" tall that's not such a big deal. If it's lower, you want to have a serious discussion with you luthier about the pros and cons of a slight bridge shave.
It DOES sound like right now you have what is called a "shallow neck set", but I'd be pretty surprised if it's in need of a reset already.
I suspect it was built that way, it happens. But it might be slightly aggravated by the medium strings.

Wow Al! Thanks for this amazing answer plenty of useful information and tips. I really appreciate.

I think you're right and that I sould go back to light strings. Luckily I ordered both gauges when I bought the GHS vintage. As I said in another post the sound has really changed these last days and if strings are for something, I don't want to change brand. I don't think light will make a huge difference in the sound I hear. Incidentally I'm loving this guitar more and more. Probably If I did not, all this action story wouldn't matter! Sometimes I can hear Paul Simon's sound. It was not the case few weeks ago.

But in order to share my findings here, I'm waiting for the action gauge tool before making any change, and this includes truss rod tweaking.

It's good to know I might be in the specs range. May I ask you where you find them?

I definitely need to confirm with my luthier what he did.

Thanks again

Notguildy said:

It's good to know I might be in the specs range. May I ask you where you find them?

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Guild used to have 'em on their website until about 3 years ago, then the links were taken down when hey re-deisgned the site, and never re-installed.
Ralf (SFIV1967) has posted the exact specs including the metric specs a couple of times, I think he has 'em saved, and I bet if you pm'd him he'd be happy to send 'em .
I always think "6-6.5/64ths" and "4.5-5/64ths", and seem to recall I'm always off by .5/64ths on the second spec when he posts 'em.
I remember6/64ths for sure because all mine came out of the box right at 6/64ths and it's perfect for me.
Allows me to strum really hard without buzz, and fingerpick right over the fretboard extension and play scales with trills and hammer-ons far up the neck with no muting, except for my own goofs..
As for bridge height variance:
The D25 and the F65ce came with 5/32 saddles and 5/16 bridges: combined height 15/16, just under 1/2" . They both pass the straightedge test exactly (at least they did 3 or 4 months ago last time I checked)
The D40 from Corona, though, I've always said has a massive bridge and saddle: 3/16" and 7/16" or 20/32", fully 1/8" taller than the 1/2" ideal. That bridge has a LOT of mass and might be why the '40's actually the "sonic runt" of the litter, but it also has a (factory) UST and might have needed that extra height/mass.
Still, it gives you an idea of the variations out there.

Notguildy said:

I don't think light will make a huge difference in the sound I hear.

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They can actually let the top resonate more by not putting so much "preload" on it. Although I do understand you're in a gray area if you still want to tune down to sing, too little tension makes a floppy top, and too much makes it too tight. Either way the top sounds muted compared to what it could do.
Think "drumskins", which can also be "tuned", but there's still a range, it's not like you have to hit an ideal tension exactly, although, the thinner the top, the narrower the "range".

Notguildy said:

Incidentally I'm loving this guitar more and more. Probably If I did not, all this action story wouldn't matter! Sometimes I can hear Paul Simon's sound. It was not the case few weeks ago.

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There're a lot of us here who believe the player is much more important than the guitar when it comes to getting good sounds. And if you're trying to sound like Paul you may well be adjusting your technique in small ways without realizing it, and when you hear that sound you like, you're more likely to repeat that technique again, even if you're not aware of it. What's really cool is when you ARE aware and able to consciously adjust technique while you're playing, to get different textures of sound....

Jumping in here a little late, but it's been a busy day...

I have been doing my own setups for the last couple years. Here is MY routine...

(1) Check the neck relief. Capo at the first fret, and fret with your finger at the 14th fret (or 12th, if its a short scale 12 fretter). There should be only a small gap... 0.006"-0.012" between the top of the 8th fret and the bottom of the low E. I use feeler gauges, but 0.012" is the diameter of a light gauge high e. If there is a larger gap, tighten the truss to straighten the neck a little. If there is no gap, loosen the truss to allow tension to bring some forward bow into the neck). Small turns... I go 1/6 turn at a time, max (since the nuts are hex shaped).

If you upped your string gauge, I would DEFINITELY check the neck relief and make adjustments (if needed) to the truss before doing ANYTHING else.

(2) Adjust the height of the nut slots. Capo between frets 2 and 3, and (according to convention) there should be an infinitesimal gap between the strings and the top of the first fret. I actually like the nut slots on the treble strings lower than convention, and will bring the slots down until the strings (when capoed between 2-3) just barely touch the first fret.

(3) Only after #1 and #2 do I try and evaluate the action at the 12th and the height of the saddle. The relief CAN significantly impact the height of the strings at the 12th fret.

Good luck...

Good advice, Dave.

So much of the mystery of a guitar's "action" is resolved when the proper steps are taken to set it up correctly.

Flat neck/level frets, no neck twist, fingerboard extension fall away, neck relief (set to individual taste), nut slot height, string height at the body joint / 12th fret / 10th fret (wherever you consistently establish it) and subsequent saddle height adjustment (maintaining break angle), all taken in consideration to achieve your definition of "playable".

Modifications that may be necessary to achieve that goal might involve fret leveling, fingerboard planing, loose frets, re-slotting, re-fretting, truss rod adjustment/repair, nut slotting, saddle slotting, saddle height, bridge pin hole slotting (or not), saddle compensation...

And, lest we forget, fingerboard plane to top-of-bridge metrics can tell us whether any of the above will ever be successful. When it is neck reset time, it is neck reset time.

It is involved but it isn't rocket science. When ignored, it will keep a player chasing his or her tail. So many guitars are neglected as a result of improper setups (painfully high nut slots, high action or annoying string buzz, or poor neck angle). When set up correctly, specifically to suit the player, the acoustic guitar can be a joy to pick up and play.

I suppose, on the flip side, keeping acoustic guitar setup a mystery will continue to elicit (undue) praise toward the select few who understand how to implement it. ;~}

Christopher Cozad said:

I suppose, on the flip side, keeping acoustic guitar setup a mystery will continue to elicit (undue) praise toward the select few who understand how to implement it. ;~}

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I think you're saying that KNOWLEDGE is POWER!! :encouragement:

Al, Dave et. al (which does not include Al Already mentioned )

Thanks for the tips. I received the action gauge ruler today and came to the conclusion that I'm in Guild standard plus margin error:
Bass E: 6.4/64
Treble E: 5.4/64
Action at bridge for bass E: 25.6/64 (to continue with 64th)

I understand from results from Dave's tests that I should trick the truss rod a bit. Effect won't be huge but I might getting closer to standards. So I need to turn right, right?

Once done I'll come back with new measurements. Eventually I'll return to light gauge (but then I might need to turn TR left!)

Notguildy said:

Al, Dave et. al (which does not include Al Already mentioned )

Thanks for the tips. I received the action gauge ruler today and came to the conclusion that I'm in Guild standard plus margin error:
Bass E: 6.4/64
Treble E: 5.4/64
Action at bridge for bass E: 25.6/64 (to continue with 64th)

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Had a chance to pull the specs last night:
5.5-6/64ths bass E at 12th fret, 4.5-5/64ths treble E at 12th fret, so you are slightly on the high side, 1/128". It seems small but yep, your fingerss can tell.
When you say "action at bridge", do you mean the bridge is 25.6/64th high at it's crown, the highest point? That's about halfway between the heights of my D40 (28/64") and D25 (20/64"), so sounds well within reason.
Ideally, for knowing you've got plenty of room to lower your action by the ideal method, you'd like your saddle to be about 5/32 (10/64) tall (from top of bridge to top of saddle at its crown, just to be clear).
If so, you've got plenty of room to lower your action by at least a full 1/64th at 12th, all the way down to 4/64ths and 5/64ths if you want to go that low.
And I think your bridge is thick enough to stand a slight bit of shaving if you want to get even lower.
Even if saddle's only 5/32 there's still room to drop another 1/64th at 12th fret and maintain a good combined height at the saddle.
If saddle's only an 1/8" or less, then you've gotta ask your luthier what he thinks about shaving 1/16" off the bridge to maintain a decent saddle height after shaving it. That'd get the bridge down very close to the thickness of my D25 or F65ce, and in fact the F65 is a very comparable instrument to the F30: small jumbo body with a thin top.
And rememebr my D25's combined height as built is only 15/32" and it's a cannon, with lights, trust me.

Notguildy said:

I understand from results from Dave's tests that I should trick the truss rod a bit. Effect won't be huge but I might getting closer to standards. So I need to turn right, right?

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Agree 100% with Gardman about adjusting relief first. Yes, turn right to tighten: flattens neck, brings strings closer to frets. You might gain that "half a 64th" " closer right there.
The one thing I KNOW is delicate is deepening the nut slots. There are special files for that because some of them are so thin, they match the designed string gauges.
Dave bougt a set of his own because he used 'em enough to justify it.
I lowered one slot in my D25 after a 99.9% perfect refret and setup, but I was lucky it was the "D" and I could roll a piece of ultrafine grit sandpaper thin enough to fit, and knew that it would only take like 6 or 7 strokes to get the extra few thousandths I wanted.
So I don't recommend that for a first-timer.
In fact, if you do decide you want to go just a little lower for both the saddle and thet nut slots, ask your luthier if he gives an "final adjustment" as part of his original cost. It's customary forj high-end guys over here.
And yes when you do go back light gauge you'll want to back it off again.
One more thing, after doing a truss adjustment, give it 24 hours to see where irt "settles in", and that's another reason to only do 1/4 or even 1/6 turn adjustments at a time. It also helps ensure you don't over-torque anything.

Thank you Al.

It rather my eyes than my fingers which can tell about traction being a bit high.

The measure "at the bridge" was the action for the bass E, distance between guitar top and bottom of the string. I guess it it the highest point? It is 0.400 (25.6/64) inch which split into:
- bridge height of 0.325 (20.8/64)
- saddle height of 0.075 (4.8/64)
It doesn't look like the standards you mention.

And me playing better and hearing then a better sound, maybe. I play a lot more now that nice guitar stands in my bedroom. But even with a simple chord strummed I can hear a difference.