Action, before doing anything stupid

Notguildy said:

It doesn't look like the standards you mention.

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Yes, it sounds like the bridge/saddle themselves are on the low side.

Notguildy said:

And me playing better and hearing then a better sound, maybe. I play a lot more now that nice guitar stands in my bedroom. But even with a simple chord strummed I can hear a difference.

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Well, if you're ok with the playability, I'd file the notes away for future reference and concentrate on playing! :wink:

Notguildy said:

Bass E: 6.4/64
Treble E: 5.4/64

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After what I think to be a 1/4 turn right on the truss rod, new measures:

Bass E: 5.5/64
Treble E: 4.8/64

No fret buzz. I might turn more but next experimentation is to change from medium to light strings. Same model. Full step down as now.

Light strings will exert less tension on the neck than medium strings, allowing the neck to "relax" back a bit, reducing your relief... you may find that you need to loosen the truss a bit if you drop the string gauge.

Again, to check the relief, capo at the first fret, and fret at the 14th fret. There should be 0.006"-0.012" clearance between the top of fret 8 and the bottom of the low E string.

Notguildy said:

After what I think to be a 1/4 turn right on the truss rod, new measures:

Bass E: 5.5/64
Treble E: 4.8/64

No fret buzz. I might turn more but next experimentation is to change from medium to light strings. Same model. Full step down as now.

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I'm kind of surprised you got a whole 64th out of 1/4 turn, but happy for you that it was that simple so far.
Something else occurred to me that I keep forgetting to post:
The "action height" specs I tend to lock up on are for Westerly through Tacoma era Guilds.
There's no confirmation that I've seen that New Hartford actually continued those specs.
Westerly's action set-up was intended to be optimum with no buzzing for a heavy handed player like myself and yet still allow plenty of adjustability downward for those who wanted a "slinkier" feel.
It also gave luthiers and techs a reference point as to what Westerly considered "in spec" for action.

I can think of at least a couple of reasons New Hartford withdrew them from the website besides the fact that they were updating the site:
They may have wanted to avoid committing to a concrete spec for all instruments, especially since they re-introduced mediums as standard on the dreadnoughts.
They may have wanted owners to feel comfortable dialing in whatever spec they liked and not worry about "factory specs".
There may be others that were the "real" reason: There was a top radius change (tops are in fact very slghtly arched, they're not completely flat), perhaps that allows the lower bridge/saddle height.
There was a thread a couple of years back about a related issue, that the bridges and saddles in particular of New Hartford instruments looked to be on the low side. Several members expressed concern about it for a variety of reasons including the one brought up here: "There's not a whole lot of room to lower the saddle if desired".

I'm impressed with figures change too but I realize these are very small figures!

Hey All, just wanted to jump in here and mention what a great thread this is. I've learned a ton of very useful information. Thanks everyone.

One more thing to consider.

Unless you are meticulous about maintaining constant humidity, a guitar's top will swell in humid weather and shrink in dry weather. Thus, a guitar that will buzz in January will play with higher action in June. Usually a slight truss rod tweak will take care of the difference.

Here in Virginia, the humidity in my house (uncontrolled) can drop below 20% in the winter, and can rise above 70% in the summer. I know of some players who have a winter saddle (taller) and a summer saddle (shorter) to account for the difference. I just try to control the storage environment as much as possible.

Neal

Neal said:

...I know of some players who have a winter saddle (taller) and a summer saddle (shorter) to account for the difference...l

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Absolutely.

Taylor allows you to leave the saddle alone and simply make the correction with a 5 to 10 minute "neck reset".

McPherson sells their guitars with three saddles. In lieu of a truss rod to account for movement in the neck wood, they have a massive piece of carbon fiber running the length of the neck making it virtually immovable. Thus, the only adjusting one would ever be doing would/could be at the saddle. Since they have also painstakingly intonated the guitar, and any alteration in action height affects intonation, including pre-compensated saddles becomes a major convenience for the player. (manufacturer hint)

Christopher Cozad said:

McPherson sells their guitars with three saddles. In lieu of a truss rod to account for movement in the neck wood, they have a massive piece of carbon fiber running the length of the neck making it virtually immovable. Thus, the only adjusting one would ever be doing would/could be at the saddle. Since they have also painstakingly intonated the guitar, and any alteration in action height affects intonation, including pre-compensated saddles becomes a major convenience for the player. (manufacturer hint)

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That seems like a rather marvellous idea though I know they are seen as very high end guitars and are priced accordingly.

Zelja said:

That seems like a rather marvellous idea though I know they are seen as very high end guitars and are priced accordingly.

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Revisiting Neal's mention of a Summer / Winter saddle, and thinking of our own beloved brand, why not offer two saddles and, if it is seen as absolutely impossible to finance such an offering at current pricing, either adjust the sales price by a nominal amount or offer it as an optional upgrade? You have just impacted one of the most often cited reasons for player disillusionment and/or repair calls; positively for the manufacturer and new guitar owner, and negatively for the repair shop. ;~}

Thank you. I will check humidity rate on a regular basis.

16 hours after moving to light gauge:
Bass E: no change in action
Treble E: lowered by 0.005 inch

No fret buzz so far. It is a bit floppy because it is a full step down below normal but I may eventually get accustomed to it.

I didn't think my fingers would feel the difference with medium but it is huge.

I have a 1980 Yamaha L-20A that came from the factory with two saddles and instructions about changing the saddles to compensate for seasonal humidity changes.
In areas like here in Utah, it is almost mandatory that I have two saddles of different heights. Otherwise I will get fret buzz in low humidity conditions.

Notguildy said:

16 hours after moving to light gauge:
Bass E: no change in action
Treble E: lowered by 0.005 inch

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My God! This guitar is alive! After a couple days, new stats for light gauge full step down:
Treble 0.070 or 4.48/64
Bass 0.080 or 5.12/64

Seems very good! And it is not as floppy as it was right after restringing. Funny to see how the guitar can adapt and that it takes some time.

Notguildy said:

My God! This guitar is living!

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And now the strings are inside the fingerboard! Until what?

To clarify, are you saying that the strings are hitting the frets?

If so, try tuning up to concert pitch now. That alone might get the strings to come up off the board.

I suspect you went a bit too far with your truss rod adjustment. If tuning to pitch doesn't get you what you want after 24 hours of settling in, then try a 1/4 turn left with the truss rod wrench.

Neal

Neal said:

To clarify, are you saying that the strings are hitting the frets?

If so, try tuning up to concert pitch now. That alone might get the strings to come up off the board.

I suspect you went a bit too far with your truss rod adjustment. If tuning to pitch doesn't get you what you want after 24 hours of settling in, then try a 1/4 turn left with the truss rod wrench.

Neal

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NIco, remembering that you want to be a full step down for your voice range, I just wanted to corroborate the idea of backing off truss tension.
I bet if you put your eye next to the headstock and sight downdown the neck you'll be able to see it's visibly "backbowed", that's why strings are laying right on the frets.
And you're seeing the reason we usually suggest waiting 24 hours for wood to "settle in" between adjustments. The neck wood flexes very slowly to achieve "equilibrium" under the new tension.
Don't be afraid to loosen it back up. Loosening the truss allows the neck to come back forward, raising the string heights.
I suspect you'll be giving it a couple of more smaller adjustments until it settles in "just right", then it should be pretty darn stable for a long time, or a whole season at least.
With my '25, I discovered it stayed the most stable if I loosened it up enough to get just a few thousandths high and then tightened it back down to "just right" the next day, only needed about an 1/8 turn when it was that close. It just seems to stay more stable if the final adjustment was a tightening.
OR.......you could use this as an excuse expand your skills and learn how to play the stuff you like in a different key more suited to your vocal range while using "standard tuning" with A=440............. it's a lot easier than you might suspect at first :wink:

I was joking in last post but it seems like my English is somehow weak!

Everything is ok with the strings. Thanks for the great help.

Conclusion: sticking to GHS vintage light one full step down.

Notguildy said:

I was joking in last post but it seems like my English is somehow weak!

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I thought it was what we'd call "hyperbole" but we still weren't sure if you were joking or not, so we decided to try to be helpful this time around.
Now that you're used to this place, we'll start giving you the same grief anybody else expects.
:highly_amused:

Notguildy said:

Everything is ok with the strings. Thanks for the great help.
Conclusion: sticking to GHS vintage light one full step down.

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Great, but I'm only gonna post that "Happy Happy Joy Joy " meme once.
nthego:

Incidentally I've just noticed that when I fret strings there is no contact with fingerboard. First time I notice that. See:



Is it normal? I can press harder but then it's like I was bending, ie sound gets different.

Maybe fretboard is too flat now?

PS: that's not a joke.