Acoustic Guitar Opening Up

fronobulax

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Yes. Cordiba often showcases the Overseas models in their Facebook page and I look forward to seeing more American made Guilds be the staple. They probably just have way more overseas inventory right now.

More to the point, the inventory of "made in America in 2015 or later" is zero and will remain that way until permits are approved and the plant starts operating. It is usually not a good thing to stir up demand for a product that cannot be delivered in a reasonable time and I suspect the demand for the New Hartford product is strong enough that that stock is getting low if there is much left.
 

Westerly Wood

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More to the point, the inventory of "made in America in 2015 or later" is zero and will remain that way until permits are approved and the plant starts operating. It is usually not a good thing to stir up demand for a product that cannot be delivered in a reasonable time and I suspect the demand for the New Hartford product is strong enough that that stock is getting low if there is much left.

makes sense to me frono. Your opinion on if Guild keeps the GAD or the 1xx overseas lines long term? I cannot imagine them closing that down...not everyone wants an old used US guild, and not everyone can afford a new US made Guild.
 

fronobulax

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makes sense to me frono. Your opinion on if Guild keeps the GAD or the 1xx overseas lines long term? I cannot imagine them closing that down...not everyone wants an old used US guild, and not everyone can afford a new US made Guild.

My opinion is worth very little without adding in my own inflated sense of self-importance.

That said,

I think the line formerly known as GAD will remain in production, as is and where is, until a comparable instrument can be made in the US and sold at the same price points and be profitable. Greater minds than mine can decide whether that can ever happen in the New World Economy or not. The GADs are certainly one thing keeping Guild profitable (or merely bleeding less cash) while the Oxnard plant is not running. I think the same thing is true about the Newark Street line. I do expect Cordoba to eventually offer high end electrics that are made in Oxnard but I don't see that for a couple of years and when it does happen they will be higher priced and/or limited. I don't see production coming back to the USA until there is less disparity in the production costs between in country and out.

That said, Guild/FMIC addressed Chinese production at LMG III and my recollection from then is that the standard of living for the factory workers was improving and labor costs were slowly rising as a result. Guild/FMIC was committed, at some level, to living wages, as opposed to sweatshops, and the opinion was expressed that within a decade Guild/FMIC could justify economically bringing production to a US facility. Or they would have to move production to another country where labor costs were depressed or they would have to drop instruments at that price point from the lineup. I expect Guild/CMG will have to face the same questions .

For the OP, I think most people believe the sound of a guitar will change over time, in the first few years after production, but the explanations are varied and generally unprovable. But buying a guitar now in hopes that will sound better later seems to be a bad strategy.
 

merlin6666

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But buying a guitar now in hopes that will sound better later seems to be a bad strategy.

That is a lot of common sense. When it comes to the future of individual guitars there could also be other considerations, e.g. for limited productions runs there could be speculation if this will translate into future collect-ability value, or if it's just a marketing blip that no-one will care about. Or the uncertainty whether a guitar is built solid enough to even survive many years let alone "open up" ... just thinking about the Orpheums that are so lightly built and sound great right out of the box, but will they be strong enough to hold up to decades of string tension and use?
 

adorshki

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But buying a guitar now in hopes that will sound better later seems to be a bad strategy.
I suspect the odds are better with Guild, though. I'm 3 for 3 with mine although I was relatively ignorant about the phenomenon when I got my D25. By the time I bought the D40 I just took it for granted it would, because it's a Guild .
Although it did take a lot longer than I anticipated.....:redface-new:
 

Christopher Cozad

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My opinion is worth very little without adding in my own inflated sense of self-importance.

...For the OP, I think most people believe the sound of a guitar will change over time, in the first few years after production, but the explanations are varied and generally unprovable.

Regarding acoustic guitars "opening up" over time, there is little scientific data for or against, as establishing an observable process having credible management over 5 or more decades has been relatively impossible to achieve.

However, much anecdotal "proof" exists (veer: for those experiencing something personally, something that you are unable to repeat, I propose this in no way diminishes the truth of the experience), the most significant coming from, perhaps, an unexpected source.

Most builders agree that there is a quantifiable change in an acoustic, stringed instrument from the moment of it's inception to a period ranging from a day to a week after strings are applied. Much of this change can be attributed to things "settling in", a rather easy-to-comprehend concept for a builder (For those who can extrapolate, I invite you to extrapolate).

This incontrovertible change leads us to hypothesize that change will continue.

This change will slow, but there will be a noticeable difference in the sound of the instrument several months later. To identify the change, the guitar is played and compared to memories of the sound of the guitar at it's birth. Before entirely dismissing this latter experience, I would suggest allowing credence on the basis of the credibility of the collective of builders. It is safe to say that all guitar makers who participate in some form of a "voicing" process of their instruments will build a veritable database of sounds in their memories (Poo-poo it from the outside if you will, we will chuckle knowingly from the inside ;~}).

This comparative memory is expanded over time to accommodate the distinctions that occur when selecting wood, determining size and shape, bracing patterns, etc. What it sounds like before is not what it will sound like afterward, but there is an identifiable relationship, and the better one gets at connecting the dots, so to speak, the better one can be at predicting the outcome. The process, while beginning much like the solo card game of Concentration, becomes second nature over time.

I say this to emphasize the point that hearing is believing.

I realize that not everyone has the opportunity to experience this (anecdotally) and this is precisely what prompts me to share the information. Do changes result solely as a result of the forces of string tension against wood, bending, bowing and pulling? Are tonal changes attributable to the inevitable changes occurring in the wood lignin and cellulose? Surely, as the hemicellulose of the woods evaporates and the organic compounds dry, harden and crystallize, this is affecting tone. Is there a truth to the hypothesis that alterations are occurring to the wood fibers at node points, much akin to the realities of stress fractures in infrastructures? Is it torrefaction or torrefiction?

But buying a guitar now in hopes that will sound better later seems to be a bad strategy.

Would it be fair if I stated that "Buying a guitar that sounded quite impressive today, with the expectation that it would, one day, open up to sound even more impressive is totally acceptable"?

Might it also be fair if I reinforced that "Buying a guitar that sounded unimpressive today, in the hopes that would, one day, open up to sound impressive" is likely a fools errand?
 
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txbumper57

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Yes. Cordiba often showcases the Overseas models in their Facebook page and I look forward to seeing more American made Guilds be the staple. They probably just have way more overseas inventory right now.

I took my G212 into my Luthier today for some routine Maintenance and he said he got an email form Ren Ferguson yesterday stating that they had not made one Oxnard guitar yet but were getting close. He is a Licensed Guild dealer so he is getting updates as they happen.
 

adorshki

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I had just seen the spring '04 price list and the first thing that jumped out at me was the presence of the GAD series. "Uh-oh" I says to myself, "the writing's on the wall. Fender's gonna take 'em overseas just like everybody else."
Then I saw the Havens signature D40: "I better grab me one of those while I still can".
So I did.
Yes. Cordoba often showcases the Overseas models in their Facebook page and I look forward to seeing more American made Guilds be the staple. They probably just have way more overseas inventory right now.
Clay, not sure if I'm missing something, or if you're missing something, but I was talking about the 2004 price list for Corona, when the GAD's were first introduced and listed. Unspoken point being that it was over 10 years ago when I thought Guild was gonna be a goner but somehow they managed to keep squeaking through.
As for Cordoba, right, they've never had anything BUT imports until now, except for their very high-end classicals. The most recent posts I've seen (like Frono's) has 'em champing at the bit to get started but still waiting for various California permits to finally clear.
I believe one of 'em stipulates no water can be used in the manufacturing facility.
At all.
(yeah that was a joke...)
Back to your question of whether GADs will remain in the line-up, I suspect they will for another 5 years or so at least, when the demographic changes Frono mentions will render China's labor force much less cost competetive that it was in the early '00's. It's already happening.
Historically there's always been a search for a new cheaper labor source when the current one starts raising costs, it goes all the way back to the 80's at least, with semiconductor manufacturing, (and Guild's own Madeira brand, for example) but there's not so many places left that are relatively secure (safe to invest in building factories in) and also logistically cheap enough to ship from at the same time..
I suspect we'll continue to see imported brands but not neccessarily from China.
 

adorshki

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However, much anecdotal "proof" exists
Right, I'm just offering my "earwitness" testimony. It doesn't mean it happens for every guitar, in fact the D25 was the first one it happened to me with. I owned 3 classicals and 2 different steel flattops prior, and they were all new, too.
I realize that not everyone has the opportunity to experience this
And especially if they've never owned a guitar from brand new, which I have.
This change will slow, but there will be a noticeable difference in the sound of the instrument several months later. To identify the change, the guitar is played and compared to memories of the sound of the guitar at it's birth. Before entirely dismissing this latter experience, I would suggest allowing credence on the basis of the credibility of the collective of builders.
Let's propose even more foundation to this concept (because I've mentioned it myself, before) by pointing out just how amazingly acute the ear is:
We can identify the difference between a flute and a trumpet and a violin and a guitar, and we don't need training to do it, the ear is simply capable of that level of transduction and discrimination between an amazing variety of sound waveforms. Combined with the brain it's an organic oscilloscope. :shocked:
Moreover, how many of you "get used" to having your television (say, the morining news) always set a certain volume, and one day noticing, "Hey the transmission's louder today" or "It's louder", and then checking and seeing that yes, in fact, the volume is higher than where it's usually set..so yes at least some humans are entirely capable of memorizing sound dynamics and characteristics especially when it's done intentionally.
When I got my first steel string I made it a point to memorize A440 (maybe not pitch perfect but within enough cycles to be able to tune it without a fork).
In fact, I bet most of us could think about what pitch they use to tune to right now, and hum it or at least put the string at pitch, just from memory.
Concentration, becomes second nature over time.
What I'm sayin'.
Back to your other point, though, you're correct: it is not valid logic to assume that just because a given instrument does open up, that it will continue to do so, or that they ALL will do so.
And personally I suspect there's probably also a point of diminishing returns, where a plateau of best possible tone is reached and eventually there will even be a decline resulting from sheer and inevitable physical degradation of materials.
In simple terms I think sooner or later the glue joints're gonna get too loose and the top's gonna get too floppy...but now I think you've got better insight about those potentials than I do.
 
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adorshki

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Man, I like that test, I wish I had done something like that when I first got the D25, but I just thought I bought a dud and was pretty disappointed in it. Hindsight is 20-20 and had I known it was going to be such a significant and all-of-a-sudden change I would have done all kinds of things to measure it... Oh well, maybe I'll just have to buy another one for some experimenting...I can tell my wife it's for science! She can't be mad at me "wasting money on another guitar"...science needs me, and another Guild!
Well, I 'preciate the compliment about my improvised "sustain test", but I was just citing how the "opening up" happened for my D25, doesn't mean it happens the same way for all of 'em.
I suspect most of 'em follow the gradual curve as Christopher explains. I think in the end it's ALL the elements mentioned working together that effect a total improvement in tone.
Still, you may wanna reinforce to the Mrs. the importance of starting with a new guitar in order to really be sure you're measuring as much change as possible.... :biggrin-new:
 

marcellis

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One reason I'm a bit skeptical about guitars opening up, is I wonder what assumptions are made about the environment. Veering very slightly on the theme, I suspect moving an instrument that has spent decades in a humid environment into a climate with 40-50% less average relative humidity will have an effect on the tone. The wood can dry, shrink and perhaps crack if humidity isn't accounted for. But tone might become brighter, crisper and louder.

Doing the reverse, moving the guitar to a high humidity area after decades in a dry place, might make your guitar sound like it is stuffed full of wool socks. So an opened up guitar, could theoretically close back again. The wood could also expand from the additional moisture. And I've been told structural problems could result.

My D60 came from a dry area to Louisiana first and then, to SE Asia. It has had problems. A brace came unglued. (I got it repaired before it caused any cracks.) I've had two truss rod adjustments too, that I never needed to make on my other Guilds or local guitars I've owned. OTOH, my D25 and F65ce have spent their entire lives in humid places. And they've been champs. But I haven't noticed any opening up. They sound great already. I have owned only the D25 since new.It sounded great on day 1. Maybe it opened up. I didn't notice. It has always sounded great.

I've always lived in places with annual average relative humidity >70% BTW, for the past few decades anyway.
 
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charliea

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I've bought six new guitars, all 12-strings from NH. Two I didn't own for very long, one I sold after a year or so, and three I still own. My F412 and F512 haven't changed noticeably over the 3-4 years I've owned them. The G312, which I've had for 2 years, is a very different story. I bought it from Blues Angel Music in Pensacola. The owner had selected it on a trip to NH, and I found out why. It looked different: very light top, almost blonde neck. Sounded like my old Westerly G312 that I regretted selling. I rotate guitars, so I play it twice a week, maybe 2-3 hours each time. Over the first several months, that guitar amazed me every time I took it out of the case. Every time, it sounded noticeably better, and played noticeably looser. It stabilized after that year, but now sounds so good, for a 'dread, that you wouldn't trade it for a jumbo. My personal experience is that some guitars open up noticeably, and some don't. Depends on a lot of factors, I suppose, but there are times when it happens so obviously you can't deny it.
 
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siddhartha

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I believe to a degree that guitars "open up," but also believe that our ears "open up" to the sound of a guitar, too. I have found that sometimes a guitar's sound might be a bit too "brash" or harsh for me, but as I play it over the course of a few days, my ears (and the strings) attenuate a bit, and we come to terms...I am better at appreciating the aspect of the tones I like, and not as acutely aware of the tones I'm not fond of.

This is why sometimes a guitar that I haven't played for a bit surprises me with sound when I pick it up. I've become somewhat used to another guitar's particular tone, and now the unplayed one sounds interesting.

Just my opinion-it's both factors at play.

I do have a ToneRight, and have used it (and am currently using it on a guitar that feels sometimes a bit harsh) and I'm a bit unsure whether it's me wanting to hear a change vs an actual positive change occurring.

I think if you take two identical guitars, play one, and never play the other, you'd have some positive change in the one played. I'm just not sure if it's something that carries over to a large sample size.
 

Neal

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Here's my take.

The number of variables involved in actually studying the "opening up" phenomenon number perhaps several dozen. Among them:

-How often played.
-How hard played.
-How long played at each sitting.
-String gauge.
-Tonewoods used.
-Style of instrument (dread, F-body, parlor, jumbo, etc).
-Climate/humidity control.
-Construction techniques (glues, neck joint, bridge placement, etc.).
-Kept in case vs. kept on stand.
-Fingerstyle vs. plectrum.
-Exposure to different playing styles.
-Frequency of string changes, and gauge changes.
-Played primarily plugged in or acoustic.
-Played alone or with others.
-Kept mostly at home, or exposed to a variety of conditions, either outside or in other homes/bars, etc.

Essentially, what I am suggesting is that a thoughtful study on this issue is an exercise in tail-chasing. Every guitar, both before and after it leaves its maker's hands, travels a different path. So, I am afraid there is no controlled study that can account for all of the variables above, and many more.

Bottom line? I would never keep a guitar that did not float my boat within a few days of getting my hands on it.

Neal
 

chazmo

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I agree with your bottom line, Neal.

But, as far as studying the subject being an exercise in tail-chasing... You're right about all the variables, but it seems there's something tangible that's worth investigating here. It's worth noting that there are some companies out there (ToneRite, etc.) that actually have businesses based on the concept. Martin, the folks who wrote the book on acoustic guitars, offers vintage treatment (torrefaction) on some builds. I guess all I'm saying is that while common sense isn't going to provide any enlightenment on the subject, analysis of the changes of various components might someday shine some light on it.

Oh, before I forget, there was a slight analogy to this in the trumpet world. I've never heard anyone claim that a brass instrument opens up over time (actually nothing good happens to brass instruments as they age), but it was all the rage a few years ago to deep freeze the bells in liquid nitrogen. This, theoretically, could change the structure of the brass. I don't know if it was anything similar concept to tempering steel, but it was an interesting idea. I've never played an instrument with this treatment, let alone had an opportunity to A/B such a beast.
 

charliea

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I agree with your bottom line, Neal.

But, as far as studying the subject being an exercise in tail-chasing... You're right about all the variables, but it seems there's something tangible that's worth investigating here. It's worth noting that there are some companies out there (ToneRite, etc.) that actually have businesses based on the concept. Martin, the folks who wrote the book on acoustic guitars, offers vintage treatment (torrefaction) on some builds. I guess all I'm saying is that while common sense isn't going to provide any enlightenment on the subject, analysis of the changes of various components might someday shine some light on it.




Oh, before I forget, there was a slight analogy to this in the trumpet world. I've never heard anyone claim that a brass instrument opens up over time (actually nothing good happens to brass instruments as they age), but it was all the rage a few years ago to deep freeze the bells in liquid nitrogen. This, theoretically, could change the structure of the brass. I don't know if it was anything similar concept to tempering steel, but it was an interesting idea. I've never played an instrument with this treatment, let alone had an opportunity to A/B such a beast.
http://www.professorstring.com/archives/frozen_guitar_strings.php
 

fronobulax

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But, as far as studying the subject being an exercise in tail-chasing... You're right about all the variables, but it seems there's something tangible that's worth investigating here.

If you are looking at scientific rigor with a hypothesis and experiments I'm going to agree that we will never get there. Even if you claim two instruments are identical I'm going to counter and say they are not because, even though the tops came from adjacent sections of the same tree, the tops are different because the growth patterns are different on the North side of the tree.

Next best would be "statistically significant" but that is unlikely because there are still too many variables and it would take years and a lot of guitars to run the experiments.

So the best we are going to get is anecdotal evidence that supports or leads to a conclusion but we will be wrong if we claim any kind of rigor.

At some point it matters not whether it is true that guitars open up over time or not. What matters is that enough people believe they will, that companies can stay in business catering to that belief and that people will buy used/vintage and the marketplace contains offers choices that accelerate the process.

I note the similarity between this discussion and the discussions among audiophiles who claim there is a discernible difference between various speaker cables or analog to digital conversions at frequencies above normal hearing. Science is never going to resolve the issue because it all comes down to someone's ears and they are all different. Some of them are still ringing from loud concerts in the '60's. :)
 
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