Tone, the Muller roller bridge, and armchair physics...

I am going to go ahead and admit I don't like the Muller bridge -- I think it imparts a banjo-like, plunky tone acoustically and, although that doesn't make it through to the amplified sound so much, I don't like it and I think I know why they sound that way to me. I'd previously just assumed it was a "too many moving parts" problem of the saddle rollers vibrating on their threaded shafts, but I have one that's all really tightly-threaded and still sounds that way to me.

So, something occurred to me the other day... Energy-wise, the downward pressure from the string on most bridges pushes a saddle into direct contact with the bridge body, which, in turn does the same to the guitar body via its studs. There's a kink in that chain of interaction with the Muller bridge, though. The tiny little metal threaded posts on which the rollers ride stick out perpendicular to the little blocks that ride along the bridge body, so some of the strings' downward pressure would figure to be absorbed in torqueing the threaded rods, since the rolling saddles "float" above the bottom of the bridge base. I have a hunch that the right sized piece of metal (little fiddly bits of filed metal, tiny nuts, a stack of tiny washers...) wedged b/w each roller and the bridge base, so that there was a direct transfer of downward pressure from roller saddle to bridge base, might make a big change in tone.

Alternately, has anyone replaced the Muller bridge altogether in a way that was reversible? I'm wondering whether another aftermarket bridge of some sort might have the right post spacing to be tapped out to ride on the existing Muller height-adjust studs.

I agree with you, i have one of these bridges in my parts box, but never knew they came with Guilds. which guitars came fitted with a Muller?

Bridge design is very important for sound. The Rickenbacker bridge is a case in point - it saps sustain in my view, and a bridge change hugely helps those guitars, though most don't know it. The same applies to Jazzmasters, which is better known.

Hey PK, yeah, they were standard issue on all the solid and semi-hollow electrics (S-100s, M-75s, Starfires, etc.) for most of the '70s-'80s.

I probably agree with you chaps when it comes to the physics but have to ask if additional sustain the be all & end all. Perhaps sometimes the less than perfect physical attributes are what impart the actual character to a guitar and make it a distinct & viable choice from other guitars, depending on the desired usage.

Sustain is a great for lead work but not always desired for some rhythm work or arpeggios - can make things messy IMO sometimes. Or maybe I'm just being contrarian today.

I think that's a fair assessment, but unfortunately most of my favorite Guilds sport the Muller.

Zelja said:

I probably agree with you chaps when it comes to the physics but have to ask if additional sustain the be all & end all. Perhaps sometimes the less than perfect physical attributes are what impart the actual character to a guitar and make it a distinct & viable choice from other guitars, depending on the desired usage.

Sustain is a great for lead work but not always desired for some rhythm work or arpeggios - can make things messy IMO sometimes. Or maybe I'm just being contrarian today.

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no, i think that's absolutely true. it can make fingerpicking pretty messy.

I've never owned a 70s or 80s Guild and had no idea they'd stopped using Bigsby bridges. Didn't the Westerly SFs continue to use Bigsby bridges like the below?



I'm actually a fan of the Bigsby bridge and have retrofitted them to other guitars, although I'm aware many aren't

parker_knoll said:

I've never owned a 70s or 80s Guild and had no idea they'd stopped using Bigsby bridges. Didn't the Westerly SFs continue to use Bigsby bridges like the below?

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They might've continued using them with SF-IIIs, I suppose, but '70s-'80s SF-IIIs are pretty rare. They definitely used them with Bigsbys on SF-V/VIs and S-100 Deluxes. Here's my '74 SF-VI:


I think the vast majority of electrics from the early '70s up to probably the Gruhn redesigns came either with the Muller (solids/semis) or with wooden bridges (X models). The hardware store will think I'm a real weirdo if I walk in there with my bridge someday and start fiddling with test-fitting makeshift shims from the fastener aisle, lol. Thinking very tiny nuts might work best, if I can find ones of the proper thickness, as the bottoms of the rollers would tend to stay seated in the center of the nuts. There's probably a high likelihood that they'd still need filed/sanded to thickness. If not that, then it'd need to be little rectangles of metal filed to fill the entire adjust range under each roller, although you might start to get into some conflict b/w flat and radiused surfaces with that approach.

Wouldn't be the first time I've used hardware store supplies to mod that guitar, though... For a while I preferred to have the Bigsby blocked, which I managed by cutting a length of copper pipe to fit in place of the spring. I felt pretty smart after sorting that out, but have gone back to having the Bigsby functional anyway, lol.

I know that the Late 90's through Early 2000's Starfire production saw the use of 3 different bridges that I can recall. The Guild Starfire 2's without a Bigsby used a compensated Rosewood Bridge that came standard on the X150's as well. The Starfire 3's of that era used the Aluminum Bigsby bridge on guitars equipped with a bigsby like the one Parker has posted a photo of. Just a note on the Aluminum bridges, There are 2 different ones, one for a wound G string and one for an Unwound G string for intonation purposes. The Starfire 4's with the Stop tail had a regular Tun-O-Matic that was on pins inserted into the guitar body. Last but not least Both my 2000 Starfire 5 and my Custom Shop 2001 Starfire 4 w/Bigsby both have the Muller bridge as Standard equipment. The one Oddball of the group is my 2003 Corona Made X160. It came factory with a Rosewood Base and an Aluminum Bigsby bridge on top. I did away with the aluminum Bigsby bridge and installed a modern Roller Tun-O-Matic from Allparts and it sounds awesome. No plunky banjo vibe, just sweet tone, Harmonics, and sustain. I also did the same conversion on a 2001 Starfire 2 that I converted to a SF3. It sounded great. Had to sell it cause the neck was too small but the bridge setup made the guitar tone amazing.

Consider me a contrarian on this one. IMO the more resonating metal a guitar has, the better. Tele (partially) floating bridge plates, Strats with anodized aluminum pickguards, Ric bridges, Jazzmaster/Jaguar vibrato systems…love 'em all.

-Dave-

I have 3 Guild solid bodies with Muller bridges. The rolling saddles "float" on none of them. The string force pushes them to direct contact with the bridge body.
Acoustic sustain is equal to all of my Tune O Matic guitars including a Guild of similar design to the others.
No Banjos here...... your problem may be somewhere else.

P.S...... I have yet to find a bridge that uses the same stud spacing as the Muller.

Quantum Strummer said:

Consider me a contrarian on this one. IMO the more resonating metal a guitar has, the better. Tele (partially) floating bridge plates, Strats with anodized aluminum pickguards, Ric bridges, Jazzmaster/Jaguar vibrato systems…love 'em all.

-Dave-

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i agree with you. you can even add metal nuts to that. And of course, Bigsbies. But I find the Bigsby bridge is good for that too.

I deepened my string slots and Intonated then with nut files to accomodate finger picking...also set the string spacing the same width as myTele.