LOVE Guild Jumbos...but a bit confused!

Hey guys,

Don't know much about Guild Jumbos, but I was in a well-known "rare vintage guitar store" here in So Cal and stumbled upon a well-used F-50...spruce top, maple all around, arched back! A real CANNON! LOUD, but such a sweet tone, even with old strings. And beautiful! I was in LOVE! Then I noticed the thing has a prob where the neck meets the body...so much so that the high e string...high octave 12th fret...frets out. Doesn't make a note at all. And the other strings are "buzzy" right there. But at around 2600.00, yikes! Too rich for my blood.

But it DID awaken my curiosity, and now I am on the search for a used Guild Jumbo as my next guitar.
In doing some research, it seems I have more choices than I thought.
One thing that confused me was the backs. It seems the jumbos with a maple arched back do not need internal bracing on the backs. But the ones with rosewood DO seem to have bracing...and not arched. Is that correct?

Also...is the 'cannon-like volume" on the one I played because of the non-braced, arched back? I also love the look of the maple and spruce...and the inlays on the fretboard...and the more ornate headstock.

Then there are other models that seem to share dimensions and materials...just maybe not the same trim? This is where it gets confusing for me...F-30, F-40, F-50...then I saw a JF-65 (sweet!), JF-30...and a few others. F?, JF? Roswood non-arched and braced...maple laminated, arched, non-braced. Then some have pickups, some not.
A bit confusing!

And the prices are ALL OVER THE PLACE!
Reverb has a few...seems like a cool site (new to me!)...and ebay has a few here and there.
Whatever I get, It'll get some sort of pick-up/preamp to be able to play live. Either factory or aftermarket.

I'm just confused about the differences in model numbers...and then there's the different factories they were made in over the years. Tacoma, Rhode island, Westerly? I prefer USA made.

Are there any "Jumbo experts" on the forum here?

--Thanks,
--Steve

Look for a New Hartford F-50. They are maple or Rosewood. I have a maple Standard that is killer.

Welcome aboard, Steve. Be patient. As a new member your posts are moderated and they do not show up immediately.

Welcome, Steve!

walrus

WELCOME TO LTG!
Stick around and enjoy the best of Guild....right here!
I've lost 18 pounds in the past 4 months so I'm no "jumbo expert," if you get my drift. :eagerness:

Joe

Welcome to LTG! Yes, Guild can be a bit confusing for somebody who just starts to learn about the brand. Let me try to answer some of your questions.

First: Guild is not producing in the US currently, the US factory in New Hartford, CT was closed 2014 when Cordoba Music Group (CMG) in Santa Monica, CA bought the Guild brand from Fender Musical Instruments Corp. (FMIC) in Scottsdale, AZ. However CMG is in the process to open a new Guild factory in Oxnard, CA! Production should start any moment there. You can read/listen/watch a bit here: http://guildguitars.com/our-company/inside-guild/

A quick shot about the Guild history is here: http://guildguitars.com/our-company/history-and-heritage/

If you are more curious we all recommend the Guild Guitar book: http://www.amazon.com/Guild-Guitar-Book-Hans-Moust/dp/0634009664
It covers the years from 1952 to 1977, and a second volume for the years after 1977 is currently in the works.

I guess you visited Norm's, right? In his book he has a F-50 and a F-50R pictured. He likes them! And yes, the "cannon-like volume" comes from the non-braced, laminated arched back. That is a special Guild feature to use such laminated arched back on some models. However there were only a few arched Rosewood models, virtually impossible to find today. Otherwise the F-50R model has a solid two piece Rosewood back. So on the F-50 it is always an arched laminated maple back. In the mentioned book of Hans Moust you will find on page 115 that the F-50 model was introduced in 1954, a few models were made in the Pearl Street New York workshop, later in Hoboken, NJ, later in Westerly, RI, afterwards Corona, CA, again later Tacoma, WA and finally until 2014 in New Hartford, CT.
You can't really make anything wrong with any of them, but probably your best bet is a New Hartford made F-50. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uE3QtQEJ1AA

The current Guild webpage lists those specs: http://guildguitars.com/g/f-50/
Don't be shocked by the suggested retail pricing, you can find them for much better pricing.
New Hartford produced two F-50 Maple versions, a F-50 Standard with simple appointments ( https://reverb.com/item/160864-guild-f-50-std-2010-natural-blonde ) and the more luxury F-50 Traditional (the link is wrongly labeled as Standard, but you can see from the appointments that it is the Traditional: https://reverb.com/item/983553-guild-f50-blonde-standard-3851400801 ). The New Hartford F-50 Traditional is hard to find right now, most are sold out.

When the Oxnard factory is finally running I would expect for maybe 2016 a new US made "F-50" which will be called "F-55 Maple" in future versus the future F-55 which will be the new name for the former F-50R.

Now you also asked about other models. Hans book will give you a better idea, in general a F-30 (15") is a smaller guitar as is a F-40 (16") and F-47 (16"). The F-50 is really the Jumbo (17" wide). At some point in history the F-50 was named JF-65 and a JF-30 was similar to a F-50 Standard.
And yes, there were some other Jumbo models over time.
Best you ask here when you find one and we can tell you what we think about her.

Ralf

I hope the cost of living there doesn't reflect on the cost of the Guitars ... Yikes so much for that dream lol

Guild F-50 Standards from New Hartford can be had for a reasonable price (~$1200-$1300). You will not get the "bling" you get on the F-50 from the Traditional Series, but you will also save over a Grand. What you will get is that same arched-back maple jumbo sound.

Mine is just killer.

Neal

'65 Mark 1
'71 D-25
'71 F-20
'73 D-35
'74 G-37
'81 D-212
'86 Dobro Squareneck
'99 X-150
'11 F-30 Std
'12 F-50 Std
'13 F-47R
'13 Orpheum 12-fret D
'14 Orpheum 12-fret 000 RW

I suggest vintage F-50 guitars. Early 70s F-50s can be had for around 1500 dollars and you get all the bling. I have F-50s ranging from 1962-1977. My two faves are a 1971 and 1975 (both maple). The 1975 is a very special instrument, was almost untouched when I got it at an estate sale for 1600 bucks. I think these represent the best bang for the buck. I have a Rosewood 1977 and it feels a bit heavy and darker than the others. Of course each guitar is different.

By the way, it is my understanding that the arched back on every F-50 since the early '70's was made on the same press, which was moved from Westerly, RI to Corona, CA, to Tacoma, WA, to New Hartford, CT, and now sits in Oxnard, CA, ready to do its magic once more.

Anyone know what year the archback press went into service? Was it in Hoboken in the '60's? '50's?

Neal

Neal said:

Anyone know what year the archback press went into service? Was it in Hoboken in the '60's? '50's?
Neal

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I'm a little too pressed for time to do a search, but I seem to recall somebody verifying it did go all the way back to Hoboken at least. Was it Ralf in my thread asking for nominations for Guild's single most significant piece of tooling?
The history detective in me wants to point out that something must have been used originally to produce the laminated arched tops GUIld started with before the F50 was ever a glimmer in Al D's eyes, and F50s do date back to Hoboken.
I think the use of it for arched backs for acoustics started off as an experiment and it worked, maybe better than all expectations.
Example: new dies must have been required for F40, and F20, and D25, and I assume there was sufficient expected demand for those to justify the die tooling expense.
Now it could be just the dies which were interchangable to produce the different body size outlines, but I suspect they must have been specifically designed for a given press.
I also assume the die tooling was much cheaper than a new press which may have required new dies to boot, and so I suspect it's been the same press since "day one".

Hi Retro Rocker - Welcome to LTG. I have not been here long, and just got my first Guild in April, about the time I logged in for membership. Everyone here is fantastic and will answer any question you have, no matter how small a detail it seems to be. I just received my education on Guild TRC's (truss rod covers), so whatever you need to know just ask and someone will help you out.

Again, welcome, and best of luck to you finding your first Guild. Most likely it won't be your last!

Cynthia

adorshki said:

I'm a little too pressed for time to do a search, but I seem to recall somebody verifying it did go all the way back to Hoboken at least. Was it Ralf in my thread asking for nominations for Guild's single most significant piece of tooling?
The history detective in me wants to point out that something must have been used originally to produce the laminated arched tops GUIld started with before the F50 was ever a glimmer in Al D's eyes, and F50s do date back to Hoboken.
I think the use of it for arched backs for acoustics started off as an experiment and it worked, maybe better than all expectations.
Example: new dies must have been required for F40, and F20, and D25, and I assume there was sufficient expected demand for those to justify the die tooling expense.
Now it could be just the dies which were interchangable to produce the different body size outlines, but I suspect they must have been specifically designed for a given press.
I also assume the die tooling was much cheaper than a new press which may have required new dies to boot, and so I suspect it's been the same press since "day one".

Click to expand...

According to Hans (pg. 155), the F-50 originated in 1954, and it did have the arched maple back.

The Retro Rocker said:

It seems the jumbos with a maple arched back do not need internal bracing on the backs. But the ones with rosewood DO seem to have bracing...and not arched. Is that correct?

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Hi Retro, welcome aboard!
In general with Guild, yes, rosewood is the least common wood used for arched backs. I can only think of 3 or 4 models off the top of my head that ever had it.
Maple and also mahogany are the most common arched back woods with Guild.
And yes the arched design allows for deleting back bracing. It's laminated (not a bad thing in a back) in a high-pressure steam press and the arch distributes stress and resists pressure much the same as an egg, besides the acoustic benefit of enhanced volume and sustain.

The Retro Rocker said:

Then there are other models that seem to share dimensions and materials...just maybe not the same trim? This is where it gets confusing for me...F-30, F-40, F-50...then I saw a JF-65 (sweet!), JF-30...and a few others. F?, JF? Roswood non-arched and braced...maple laminated, arched, non-braced. Then some have pickups, some not.

Click to expand...

In general, the increasing model numbers in the "F"'s designate incremental increases in body size, although the wood mixes could change over time. "Bling" generally got better as the model numbers went up as well, but every once in a while you'd see a special edition of a model with "extra bling".
F50's were always top of the line and got a "G"-shield headstock very early on, always the sign of a top-end Guild.
F40's were a step down in size and got chesterfields, but then came an F47 that was basically an F40 with an F-50's neck bling.
Guild was installing on-board pick-ups on flat-tops as early as the mid '60's and those models are normally designated with an "E" suffix to the model number on the label, or possibly "Spec" for "special" in very early ones. Without that, the pickup is probably aftermarket/owner-installed.
AS you might be picking up, they weren't exactly 100% consistent in everything, probably because as Hans Moust mentions in his book, they functioned more like a custom shop than a production line well into the Westerly period, '66/67-'01. (Corona followed Westerly, '01-roughly '05, then Tacoma, roughly '05-'08, then New Hartford. Each factory had a clear designation of its location on the label)
The "JF" numbers came in the late '80s when new boss George Gruhn tried to "clean up" the model number system, so an F50 became a JF65 and an F50R became a JF55

The Retro Rocker said:

and then there's the different factories they were made in over the years. Tacoma, Rhode island, Westerly? I prefer USA made.

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I'm a made-in-USA loyalist myself, and reviews here indicate every factory made some very good guitars, although Corona seems to be the one that gets the most frequent reports of an "underwhelming" instrument, sonically.
Westerly has the best reputation on the internet sales side at least, but let's' make clear they also had the longest run so it only stands to reason by sheer numbers there's gonna be more great Westerlys out there than any other location.
There's also a myth that Westerly quality declined after the Fender take-over in '95. Nothing could be further from the truth. One of our members worked there and has pointed out that Fender implemented much more consistent QC controls when they took over.
Did it make the guitars better? There're several members here who believe that late Westerly (Fender years) was one of, if not the best overall period in Guild's history, quality wise.
I could be in that group but I gotta trust the guys who swear by their Tacomas and New Hartfords (and Hobokens too), as well.
We all seem to agree there's just something about a USA Guild's sound that's about 98% guaranteed to be very very good no matter where it was built.
Enjoy your hunt!

dapmdave said:

According to Hans (pg. 155), the F-50 originated in 1954, and it did have the arched maple back.

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Right, but to be fair to Neal his specific question was when the press that's now made it all the way to Oxnard, actually went into service.
Or are you pointing out that F50's even pre-date Hoboken? (yeah my bad I don't remember when they left New York, I thought they were there less than 2 years and already in Hoboken by '54)
About the press though, I'm only about 95% sure that it's the same press that Hoboken used.

adorshki said:

are you pointing out that F50's even pre-date Hoboken?

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F-50s were already made in Pearl Street New York. The one on page 115 for instance.

How old the press is, I don't know, but it was in Westerly already. It's a heated 30 ton Wabash press:



Ralf

Thanks for the warm welcome, everyone! And LOTS of great information!!! And lots of great details, Ralf! Thank you so much!
I guess I should point out, I have owned 2 Guilds in the past, both Dreads, and my old D-25M was one of my all-time faves!
I have had Guilds, Gibsons, Epiphones, a Washburn, a Yamaha, and other acoustics thru the years. And a bunch of Gretsch, Fender, Epiphone, Ric, and Vox electrics.

I feel more comfortable with the larger guitars, and I'm looking forward to my first Jumbo Guild! And with the information I just received here, I feel I can make a much more informed purchase!

Thanks again! I'm sure I'll be here a lot!

--Steve

Was the same press used for arched-back 12 string models like the F-412?

etzeppy said:

Was the same press used for arched-back 12 string models like the F-412?

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As far as I know there was only that one and it was and will be used for all models that had/will have laminated backs.
Another picture when the press arrived in Oxnard earlier this year (with Ren Ferguson):
They even brought the wedges/shims made from old Ovation guitar necks from NH! (that story is here)
The press looks like it needs a bit of TLC...



Ralf

When you think of how many arch-back Guilds came off of that press over at least five decades, it is simply amazing.

I currently own a '74 G-37, an '81 D-212, and a '12 F-50 Std, all of which were born on that machine.

Now I probably ought to go looking for something from the '90's and '2000's to complete the set. I had a '01 F-412, but sold it!

Neal