Trying to understand shaving and resets...

I am trying to learn what I can about guitars and how they work so I can best take care of mine.

In GC on Friday I met a young man in the acoustic room who had brought his Martin in for the saddle to be shaved because his action had gotten a bit higher than he liked due to string tension, he said. I think he said his guitar was a few years old, maybe even only a couple. He was playing a newer model to compare to his older version of the same model to see if there were any big differences, which he said there weren't. I think the one he was playing was in the $2500 range. Should a guitar that expensive need "attention" at only a few years old?

Is this how the "bowing effect" (don't know what else to call it) is supposed to be handled? Is it accepted practice to shave here and shave there until a neck reset is the only option? I understand that resets are pricey, but do most people shave as much as they can until they have to reset? When you get a reset how long should it be before you need another one? Have I read that sometimes even the bridge is shaved?

Thank you for any enlightenment. I am trying to understand the nuts and bolts of guitar ownership and proper care of the instrument.

Cynthia, it's the inevitable action for an acoustic guitar to fold up on itself. Different guitars react differently to time and string tension. They're all individuals. I think Frank Ford's page helps to explain this very well, so I'll let him do it.

Here about saddle height: http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Musician/Guitar/Setup/LowerAction/loweraction01.html

And here about neck resets: http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Musician/Guitar/Setup/NeckAngle/neckangle.html

I hope this helps and if I've missed the gist of your question, there will be others soon to correct and enlighten.

:encouragement:

If he said the action was higher due to string tension, it sounds like he put on heavier gauge strings than spec. Usually a truss rod adjustment could take care of that. If he didn't use heavier than spec strings, then no, it shouldn't need a saddle shaved if it was acceptable when he bought it. Wood does move, however. Martins did, in the past, use non-adjustable truss rods, and some Luddites still swear by them. But, in this day and age, two-way adjustable truss rods should be a given. I also go so far as to put, like many other builders, carbon fiber reinforcement rods to either side of the truss rod. Anything that can help keep a neck stay on the straight, though not maybe narrow, path.
I also think a good luthier would not shave the saddle as a first course. That's just a symptom of another issue. Best to address the issue, so you don't have to keep shaving.

Also, climate changes, seasonal or other, can affect the action of a guitar. Usually dryer conditions the action will lower and more humid will raise. I don't know what conditions he stores his guitars in so it's hard to say. If he's in FL too, then I really don't know, but that just came to me.

Thank you for the replies. I appreciate the information, and your patience in answering my questions. Just over a year ago I knew absolutely nothing about guitars so I really have made some progress, but have "miles to go before I sleep" in the guitar education category. There is just so much to know! Most of what I have learned has been from helpful members here at LTG, and without that guidance I would still be almost completely clueless. Thank you for the links, Tom. I have not read them yet but I certainly will when I have a few extra minutes for paying close attention.

I took the first guitar I bought (used) to a shop in town, knowing nothing of course, and asked for a setup. They shaved the saddle so badly that there were empty holes on each side of it in the bridge. And the buzzing was horrible! My instructor agreed it was not a good job. I took it to a luthier who did a new bone nut and saddle, fret dressing, and setup and it was like a different guitar. Quality work sure makes a huge difference.

And shaving a saddle is not just about compensation for the changing geometry of the guitar Cynthia, it's also about playing comfort. Some people just like the action on their guitars low.......I'm one of them. It makes them easier to play, but it is said that with low action, you sacrifice volume. Volume has never been an issue for me in that I'm rarely trying to project in a large room for a bunch of people, so I'm very comfortable with the tradeoff of playability for volume.

West

Having said that, I have yet to even think about sanding a saddle on any of my New Hartford instruments, including an '11 and a '12. Action is perfect on both.

Neal

Right, Neal, and both of my 21 year old Guilds are still setup from the factory. I've done nothing to the saddle on either one and the action is just about perfect!!

That is amazing, Tom. And I assume you have kept themat pitch? If I recall correctly, you keep them out on stands ready to play, right?

Neal

Cynthia: I have posted the below many times before, but I learned a lot from the Taylor Guitars tech sheets.

The saddle and bridge height has to do with "action" of the guitar. "Shaving" means reducing the height of either the saddle or the bridge or both.
To figure out if action is fine you usually measure action at the 12th fret, the distance from the top of the 12th fret to the underside of the strings.

HOWEVER: Before you even check action you ALWAYS need to first check if the truss rod is set correctly!
ALWAYS adjust the truss rod first and second adjust the action, not vice versa.

And also very important: The guitar needs to be tuned to pitch when you do it! Some people forget to re-tune between any changes done.

Now lets look into the two things:

1) Checking the correct truss rod setting:
The truss rod need to be checked when you change string gauge for instance (like from Light to Medium gauge strings or vice versa).
Also when you have big humidity changes between summer and winter or big temperatur changes. I mean slow changes over a long time, not just temporarily.

This tech sheet explains it very well: http://c3.zzounds.com/media/truss_rod_adjustment-c53669fbee160b82ed2b3d44fed49ac3.pdf

The important thing is that when you change truss rods you change them VERY slowly! Means like 1/8th or max 1/4th of a turn at a time. Afterwards you need to tune to pitch again and check again. This might take some time, step by step. If you turn a truss rod too much you can damage the truss rod and the neck.


2) Now after you are 100% sure that your truss rod is set correctly (and your guitar is still perfectly tuned to pitch) you can now check the action on the 12th fret.

Here is the Taylor Guitars guide for checking the action, and now you also see why a saddle might need to be "shaved": http://c3.zzounds.com/media/action-7ff530daa50f07b282eb101094a987d4.pdf

To measure action it is best to buy a 6" ruler with 1/32" and 1/64" increments from any automotive parts shop.

In a previous Guild owners manual Guild wrote for the 12th fret test:
On the low E string: The gap should be between 5.5/64" to 6/64".
On the high E string: The gap should be between 4.5/64" to 5/64".

In the Taylor tech sheet Taylor uses 6/64" (low e-string) and 4/64" (high e-string) as standard settings.
I think that is a universal accepted setting for an acoustic steel string guitar, even if some people prefer lower values. (Mind, classical nylon string guitars have MUCH higher action!)

As example, the below picture shows already a slightly too high action (8/64" instead of 6/64" in that case):




Now as you can read for any 1/64" you want to lower the action you need to shave 2 times as much (2/64") from the bottom of the saddle! (as the 12th fret is the middle of a string between nut and saddle)
Pretty logical that you quickly run out of saddle...In the above example to go from 8/64" to 6/64" you need to save 4/64" from the saddle!
Now if the bridge is still very high some people start to shave the wooden bridge down but in that case you also need to rout a new deeper saddle slot! (which requires good machines)
And shaving a wooden bridge means that in case of a future neck reset you also need to replace the bridge! So it's never a very good idea to shave the wood down...

So shaving the saddle is fine but as West said, the lower the height of the saddle over the soundboard of the guitar, the less volume (vibrations of the top) you get from the guitar.
As Frank Ford showed in the above (by Tom) posted Neck Angle article, if there's about 1/2" between the low E and the top at the bridge, then the neck angle is just about right (left picture below).
If there's less than 3/8" between the string and the top, then there's neck angle trouble and a neck reset should be considered in future. (right picture below).



Ralf

Neal.... yes SIR!! I keep them all out and play them all in rotation. This corner of the house is kept at 40-45% which is a BITCH in the desert. I can't believe I'm showing you a $hitty photo of my guits.... but I'm just home semi intoxicated and just played the Washburn (which is GREAT plugged in) and the Taylor which is good no matter what. The Guilds get equal time. Life is good when you have CHOICES, and you have more than I do, my friend!! Life is GOOD!!

I think Martins, at least in the past, shipped with a fairly tall saddle and high-ish action with the expectation that the end user would have it taken down to whatever their preference. Further, I know there's a very general expectation for Martins to play a little taller/stiffer than Gibsons, the result of the former being often used for instrumental bluegrass, etc. and the latter for vocal accompaniment. I think that whole D body shape came about in effort to compete with banjos, etc. for volume on single-string parts.

davismanLV said:

Neal.... yes SIR!! I keep them all out and play them all in rotation. This corner of the house is kept at 40-45% which is a BITCH in the desert. I can't believe I'm showing you a $hitty photo of my guits.... but I'm just home semi intoxicated and just played the Washburn (which is GREAT plugged in) and the Taylor which is good no matter what. The Guilds get equal time. Life is good when you have CHOICES, and you have more than I do, my friend!! Life is GOOD!!

Click to expand...

Everybody has their own pick but the D55 Tom.....what's up with that? : )

West

Where? Where? Oh yeah, I'd been playing it and I found the pick on the floor of the bedroom this morning. I had NO IDEA where it went. Plus there's no D55 in that photo, Jim. But yeah.... I lost a pick somehow last night. I was moderately intoxicated.

Neal said:

That is amazing, Tom. And I assume you have kept themat pitch? If I recall correctly, you keep them out on stands ready to play, right?
Neal

Click to expand...

All 3 of mine are still perfectly aligned and spot-on as delivered at Guild's 6/64" set-up spec for bass E, stored at pitch (or just a little softer if I don't think I'll be playing it for a while), in case, in a closet, when not in my lap.
Always strung with factory spec strings (lights and extra lights for the F65)
Only mod has been to the D25 which had bone nut and saddle installed when about 18 months old, matching factory profile.
Humidity here very rarely gets outside the ideal 45-55% year round, and I don't use central heating or cooling.

kakerlak said:

I think that whole D body shape came about in effort to compete with banjos, etc. for volume on single-string parts.

Click to expand...

'96 Guild catalog says they were developed to meet the need for a guitar which could be heard in the Texas swing band context.
Which is still pretty close to your explanation.
I'll have to go see if Martin has any take on it since I think they invented it..

adorshki said:

'96 Guild catalog says they were developed to meet the need for a guitar which could be heard in the Texas swing band context.
Which is still pretty close to your explanation.
I'll have to go see if Martin has any take on it since I think they invented it..

Click to expand...

I think more of electric archtops (and early solidbodies) when I think "Texas swing band." I always think "Lester Flatt" when thinking of D-bodied Martins. Gilded will come along eventually and straighten us all out... ;-)

kakerlak said:

I think more of electric archtops (and early solidbodies) when I think "Texas swing band." I always think "Lester Flatt" when thinking of D-bodied Martins. Gilded will come along eventually and straighten us all out... ;-)

Click to expand...

Now that you mention it, the catalog does say "....traveling western swing bands of the 1940's...", before I double checked I was thinking the '30's, and that might have been a wee bit too early for electrics at all.
So your take's good enough for me.
Never did see the sense in Lester tellin' Jed Clampett to move to Californy, though.

adorshki said:

I'll have to go see if Martin has any take on it since I think they invented it..

Click to expand...

Here you go: https://www.martinguitar.com/about-martin/the-martin-story/dreadnought-story.html
and part 2:
https://www.martinguitar.com/about-martin/the-martin-story/dreadnought-story.html?id=183
Ralf

SFIV1967 said:

Here you go:

Click to expand...

Saw it, thanks!