Casady's sunburst Starfire isolated live recording TONE!!!!

mgod · Jan 1, 2016

adorshki said:
Compare that to "Water Song" on Burgers a few years later, fully Alembicized by then, I think you're right about looking for a tone he had in his head.

That may have been the Alembic.

Minnesota Flats · Jan 5, 2016

Saw him play about that time with (embryonic) Hot Tuna up close in a small venue (Freight & Salvage, Berkeley, CA), with just Jorma on acoustic. JC's eyebrows bounced around like crazy in time to his playing: maybe they were trying to fill in for the missing drummer...

You can see a bit of this sort of eyebrow percussion here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjfhsLuOEWI

edwin · Jan 6, 2016

mellowgerman said:

My son Xander, who is 3, saw this picture and said "What cool bass! I love the stair lumps!" referring to the metal plates.

mellowgerman · Jan 6, 2016

edwin said:
My son Xander, who is 3, saw this picture and said "What cool bass! I love the stair lumps!" referring to the metal plates.

Excellent. When I was student teaching 1st graders I used to love all the brilliant, poetic, creative things they would say. Pure, unfiltered expression.

adorshki · Jan 29, 2016

For years I had a suspicion that Jack must have had his Starfire by the time they were recording "Baxter's", something about the tone, At least on "Spare Chaynge" and " Won't You Try".
Even Mgod has said Jack recollected it being recorded with a Fender.
Finally, some confirmation he at least had the Starfire as early as '67 (assuming this video is dated correctly):

Mellow, if you hadn't posted that link of Paul's "Won't You try" rehearsal over in that thread, I never would have found this.
Thank You.

fronobulax · Jan 30, 2016

adorshki said:
Finally, some confirmation he at least had the Starfire as early as '67 (assuming this video is dated correctly):

Are you drawing your conclusion from the tone or assuming that the still picture dates from the recording? I have seen enough audio recordings decorated with unrelated images that I would not make that latter assumption without other confirmation.

mellowgerman · Jan 30, 2016

crownofcreation68 is actually my old youtube account and I posted those 67 rehearsal recordings. I can't 100% confirm the 1967 date for the recording, which was attached to the file whenever I came upon it, but judging by the way they're playing, the tone of instruments/voices, and the other tunes they tinker with in this session's full recording (martha and it's alright), i hear no reason to doubt the 1967 date.
I can however confirm that the still photo is not from that day, it is from the Altamont disaster of 1969. I only picked that photo because it's a nice shot and better than no visual. sorry if it was deceiving!
tonally the bass on the recording could well be a starfire, but it's hard to say... jack's playing/right-hand-technique comes through on almost every instrument he plays... so although the jazz bass and starfire sound different, with both having two single-coil pickups, and with a mystery amplifier/EQ setup on that day, all captured with relatively primitive live recording technology, it's tough to distinguish

Happy Face · Jan 30, 2016

A bit of confirmation of the 1967 date. I have a two CD set called "Chase the Dragon". (It was released by "Dynamite Studio" and is marked as "Promotional Copy, Not For Sale.) Disc One is labeled "Rehearsal 1967" and includes the sound file above. No liner notes.

fronobulax · Jan 30, 2016

mellow provided the clarification I wanted - a '69 photo with a Starfire juxtaposed with a '67 recording really tells us nothing about what bass was in the recording.

mavuser · Jan 30, 2016

FWIW Phil Lesh had his first Guild SF II bass by August 13, 1967. So there is certainly a chance Jack had one in 1967 as well. I couldn't speak to the recording however.

NEONMOONY · Jan 31, 2016

Cassidy said in the Fly Guitar interview that he was in somewhat of a hurry to get the guitar back with the changes so he told Ron Wickersham to just cut a hole in the guitar and put a plate in it even if it looks crude.

adorshki · Feb 1, 2016

mellowgerman said:
I can however confirm that the still photo is not from that day, it is from the Altamont disaster of 1969. I only picked that photo because it's a nice shot and better than no visual. sorry if it was deceiving!

Yes I forgot that possibility the photo wasn't the same date as the audio, but it's so common, it's no big deal. Appreciate the clarification!

mellowgerman said:
tonally the bass on the recording could well be a starfire, but it's hard to say... jack's playing/right-hand-technique comes through on almost every instrument he plays... so although the jazz bass and starfire sound different, with both having two single-coil pickups, and with a mystery amplifier/EQ setup on that day, all captured with relatively primitive live recording technology, it's tough to distinguish

So at least somebody else gets why I suspected the Starfire, "sound" wise.
Maybe another way to look at it is to compare the sound on Pillow to Baxter's, both recorded at RCA Hollywood although granted there were different producers and engineers.

mavuser said:
FWIW Phil Lesh had his first Guild SF II bass by August 13, 1967. So there is certainly a chance Jack had one in 1967 as well. I couldn't speak to the recording however.

Yeah I seem to recall seeing somewhere they did get'm at almost the same time, so it's "possible" he could have had a Starfire in time to use it on Baxters'sessions (June-October '67), but still no concrete confirmation and so in fact still contradicted by MGod's kind reporting of Jack's recollection of the sessions.

fronobulax · Feb 2, 2016

I believe in mgod.

In the Fly Guitars interview here Jack says "Yeah the first three albums are recorded with a Fender Jazz bass" and the first three albums are Takes Off, Surrealistic Pillow and Baxter's.

Later in the article he states he first encountered a Starfire in '67.

One of the people in the studio I think, (told me about) that Guild bass and I bought that. I started playing around with it and brought it to the session, but I don't think I recorded with it. That third album was still a somewhat modified Fender Jazz bass

While there is some ambiguity in context I think the session where he does not recall using the Starfire was for Baxter's.

So I think the evidence that it was the Jazz bass and not the Starfire in Baxter's is pretty compelling.

In the case of Casady I think it is probably misleading to claim which instrument was, or was not, being used solely by listening. Mgod and others have commented that Jack sounds like Jack regardless of the instrument and much of the tone we hear originates in Jack's fingers, not his equipment.

adorshki · Feb 2, 2016

fronobulax said:
So I think the evidence that it was the Jazz bass and not the Starfire in Baxter's is pretty compelling.
In the case of Casady I think it is probably misleading to claim which instrument was, or was not, being used solely by listening. Mgod and others have commented that Jack sounds like Jack regardless of the instrument and much of the tone we hear originates in Jack's fingers, not his equipment.

Once again I will lay that pet hypothesis to rest, but when I saw that pic associated with a date, it sprang back to life.

Yggdrasil · May 29, 2016

mgod said:
Both did.

Jack's SFs used a relatively modified Gibson Vari-tone. Both basses were passive in their tone-shaping, but the second one had active impedance-lowering (emitter followers). Neither SF bass, nor really any other than my green 68, had rewound low-impedance pickups.

At a FPR workshop maybe 10 years ago, Jack spoke of this and IIRC said that the active Alembic electronics in his Starfires were there for one reason only - to boost the signal so he could use longer cables and move around the stage. I have DATs of those old workshops and if I come across the comment I'll quote it exactly.

Yggdrasil · May 29, 2016

fronobulax said:
I believe in mgod.

As do we all...

mgod · Jun 21, 2016

Only the 2nd one had an active circuit, but again, it wasn't the tone circuit.

Minnesota Flats · Jul 26, 2016

I saw this show at Winterland in 1968 (I think it was). Was anyone else there?

(Lookie who's sitting in on bass):

http://alembic.com/club/messages/393/67141.jpg

adorshki · Jul 26, 2016

Minnesota Flats said:
I saw this show at Winterland in 1968 (I think it was). Was anyone else there?

Trick question.
If we were we wouldn't remember it anyway, right?

Minnesota Flats said:
(Lookie who's sitting in on bass):

http://alembic.com/club/messages/393/67141.jpg

Kidding aside, I know there's a recording of Jack sitting in with him at the Oakland Coliseum but I don't recall hearing about him sitting in anywhere else.
Dagger Records has this "official bootleg" which I rate at 9 out of 10 only because the SF side is a little weak in audio, but the Paris side is an 11 (very early Experience is my favorite era):
http://www.jimihendrix.com/music/paris-1967-san-francisco-1968/
They mention Buddy Miles but not Jack in the notes, but they also call it Winterland in one place and Fillmore in the track listings, so...?.
Now I can't find the Oakland Coliseum show which used to be available on the site, I'm guessing it must have been let go out of print.
The audio quality reviews for it were discouraging so I never actually bought it...but I think there was a version of "Voodoo Chile" on it, "naturally".
Now you gt me wondering if it might be available and credited on Hendrix's "Live at Winterland" and I've just forgotten.
Whoopsie, yes he is, on "Killing Floor" for the October 10th show.
I think the Coliseum show was just a few days later. Ahh,, it's actually up on Wiki...April '69:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Live_at_the_Oakland_Coliseum

Minnesota Flats · Jul 26, 2016

Jack is credited as sitting in on "Hey Joe" and "Killing Floor" 10-10-68 on the disc "Winterland", I believe. I'm really lucky to have picked that particular concert to go to as it was the only time I saw Hendrix live and is often held up as the pinnacle of his live work with the Experience.

My ears were ringing for 3 days.

Casady's sunburst Starfire isolated live recording TONE!!!!

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