Finishes

kostask

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Nitro does crystalize, or more accurately, outgas until such time as there are NO solvents left behind. In terms of flexibility, strangely enough, it is reduced, but the nitro is so well bonded to the wood that is essentially one piece. This is what makes the tone better, along with the reduced weight and thickness (we are talking at a microscopic level). This also what makes older nitro finishes so prone to checking and cracking.

All of the poly finishes are essentially a very, very thin sheet of transparent latex rubber on top of the wood. They do not bond to the wood as strongly, and their flexibility is partly what makes them so durable, and to some extent, a sound absorber that does not improve over time. Does it suck all the tone out of a guitar. Not by any means, but it does have a very slight more deteriorating effect on the guitar vs. what it would have been with a good, thin nitro finish. While the nitro finish will have less and less impact on the tone over time, poly (or to be completely accurate, catalyzed finishes) will have the same slightly negative effect for the entire lifespan of the guitar. Poly finishes are not the tonal disaster that many believe them to be, at least for modern poly finishes, but they do have more of a tonally detrimental effect than nitro, that doesn't improve with time.

Also, I want to make the point that ALL finishes adversely impact the tone of a guitar vs. the same guitar without finish. Finishes are a necessary evil, as the guitar needs some protection. At this point, the nitro and french polishes have the least detrimental effect on tone. They are more delicate, but nitro at least can be repaired relatively easily and when properly done, invisibly. It is perhaps the case where some poly finished guitars (like Taylors, when repaired by properly trained and equipped luthiers) can as well, but the vast majority can't. Most poly repairs are repaired by the use of cyano glues, because there isn't a luthier that can get the training or the equipment for all of the various poly finishes, even if there is a way of repairing some of the poly finishes properly (i.e. invisibly). We know that nitro finished guitars are delicate, and they will develop finish cracks and checks. Any good luthier can fix them, using standard nitro lacquers and solvents. Poly finishes are more durable and won't crack and check. However they will be damaged at some point, and the probability is very high that the repair will not be invisible, and will most likely consist of a bead of cyano in the crack, and then sanded down to be level with the surrounding poly.

Also note, that while we are obsessing over finishes, the choice of guitar strings, and guitar pick, if used, has more of an effect than the finish (of any type) does.
 
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adorshki

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Also, I want to make the point that ALL finishes adversely impact the tone of a guitar vs. the same guitar without finish. Finishes are a necessary evil, as the guitar needs some protection. At this point, the nitro and french polishes have the least detrimental effect on tone.
Everything I've come across in my casual research tends to support this, but I think the real useful concept if I may paraphrase, is just what you said: "which one inhibits resonance the least?"

Also note, that while we are obsessing over finishes, the choice of guitar strings, and guitar pick, if used, has more of an effect than the finish (of any type) does.
Right, as always brought up in previous threads, the practical question is truly: "Can you actually hear a difference between finishes?"
I'm willing to admit that it's probable that even experienced listeners may not be able to, between identically constructed instruments with the best finishing techniques applied, between NCL and poly, at least.
So that still leaves only the ease of repair/refinishing factor as a potential hot button for a guy like me.
 

kostask

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Al, part of the "Can you actually hear a difference between finishes?" question is dependent on who and where the listening is done. Some people, even in the best of conditions will, some won't. In an uncontrolled environment, (living room. bar, coffee shop) probably not. Also, for new instruments, the difference may only be very slight or non-existent, where as a couple of decades later, it may be more obvious.

I like nitro because of ease of repair, should it need it, and because I honestly believe it to be the least detrimental to tone. Quite simply, a guitar that is nitro finished is one in which tonal considerations have taken precedence over daily guitar quotas and minimizing per guitar unit cost. It is a more expensive way of finishing a guitar, but, at this point in time, it is still the best way to finish a guitar if tone is the primary factor. I may not hear it, and I may be deluding myself somewhat, but I nonetheless very much believe it to be the case.

P.S. The tonal degradation of a guitar after the finish (of any type) is not at all subtle. Even when a guitar is finished by the most obsessive tone-oriented hand builder who sprays the absolute thinnest possible nitro finish, the tonal degradation is not at all difficult to hear.
 
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adorshki

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Also, for new instruments, the difference may only be very slight or non-existent, where as a couple of decades later, it may be more obvious.
Right, I might have been a little too broad and imprecise, but the logical apples-to-apples comparison would be between 2 new guitars of identical build.
I too do believe over time the nitro finished piece will acquire better resonance and that's also allowing for the basic stumbling block we acknowledged years ago: that no 2 acoustic guitars are exactly the same even if they were constructed identically with tops and bracing from consecutive pieces of the same wood blank.
On high-end guitars I would expect the difference to be at least measurable by something like an O-scope analysis even if not actually audible, on lower-end and laminated tops I suspect the difference may not be audible even over time.
Speaking of high-end builds, one of the things that caused me to revive this thread was that Default mentioned recently
that he's seen boutique builders quoting varnish finishes for a price adder.
I strongly suspect they're quoting the genuine original stuff like the cello-finishing recipe that got me started on this whole thread. Maybe even make it themselves.
And speaking of high-end builds:
My thoroughly abused '81 D-35 has the thinnest finish around...zero!

81%20D-35%20Finished%20Top_zpsyx3nwqhn.jpg


81%20D-35%20Finished%20Back_zps426eiko2.jpg

That thing's just cryin' out for an 18th-century style genuine red wine sunburst( :biggrin-new: ) and a french polish finish.
Or maybe varnish if you wanna cheap out a little.

Yes I'm still a nitro loyalist myself and that's still reinforced by the multilple endorsements from makers on the forum here, but I'm still just trying to give equal time to all of 'em.

P.S. The tonal degradation of a guitar after the finish (of any type) is not at all subtle. Even when a guitar is finished by the most obsessive tone-oriented hand builder who sprays the absolute thinnest possible nitro finish, the tonal degradation is not at all difficult to hear.
Yes we do tend to overlook that when talking about finishes, it emphasizes your point that the real way to look at 'em is to figure out which ones detract the least from "tone".
 

Quantum Strummer

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I wonder if there are any builders/makers who voice guitars with certain finishes in mind? Given that all finishes have a tonal impact, if I were both in the guitar making biz and concerned about tonal quality there's no way I wouldn't be considering this from the get-go.

-Dave-
 

adorshki

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I wonder if there are any builders/makers who voice guitars with certain finishes in mind? Given that all finishes have a tonal impact, if I were both in the guitar making biz and concerned about tonal quality there's no way I wouldn't be considering this from the get-go.

-Dave-

EXCELLENT question!
 

kostask

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The ones that I know of do. The final voicing of a guitar is always done after the finish is dry and polished out. The hand builders that I know of already know exactly what type of finish is going onto the guitar (always nitro) and the thickness that the finish will be (with a very very small variation in finish thickness, because they are in complete control of the finishing process) before a guitar is even ordered.
 
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Quantum Strummer

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Yeah, I'm sure the small(er) builders take finish into account. I'm thinking more of, say, Taylor. Given the attention they pay to a slew of other guitar-making variables, to not do the same with finish type, thickness, etc. would be IMO irresponsible. I can't imagine they're not paying attention.

-Dave-
 

davismanLV

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Dave, see the video I posted earlier in this thread about what Andy Powers and Bob Taylor are doing about finishes. They're paying attention! :encouragement:
 

Quantum Strummer

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Thanks, Tom! Serves me right for reading most of this thread in a public place with no earbuds at hand (and thus no video viewing).

-Dave-
 

davismanLV

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S'okay, Dave!! I'm glad they're paying attention, but historically Taylor and Bob Taylor specifically, does pay attention. To everything. :encouragement:
 

Quantum Strummer

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I met Bob Taylor 20 years ago at an event related to the 512C Nanci Griffith signature model. Met Nanci too! And bought one of the guitars, which I still have & love, soon thereafter. Anyway I asked Bob a question about Taylor's bolt-on neck design, and got a highly in-depth response that included plans for improving the design…stuff that was later incorporated into the NT neck. I was way impressed. Didn't think to ask him about finishes, though.

-Dave-
 

adorshki

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Boyoboy time to bump this puppy again because I just came across a really good thread on "Luthiertalk" in which one poster recaps recent developments in NCL formulation:
http://www.luthiertalk.com/index.php?threads/the-plain-truth-about-nitrocellulose-finishes.239/

From the first post:
"A thin acrylic lacquer finish will be basically indistinguishable from nitro, except that it won't yellow and crack over time. and you can add up to 7% nitro back to acrylic and still get that yellowing/cracking "effect". which is what Gibson does currently, and they pay a monthly fee to do so because the EPA regs state that the current maximum allowed nitro component is only 5%"

Ok, that was new to me but I've got a little skepticism about its accuracy because I don't believe this statement he made is entirely accurate either:
"so the nitro your spraying now is not the nitro of the 1950s because that stuff was banned in 1974 by the EPA."

Yes I recall that it was banned for use in auto factories in California (my '75 Monza had acrylic lacquer) but I don't recall ever seeing it as an EPA issue, rather, the Cal Air Resources Board rulings gradually dragged the rest of the country along with their standards as it became non-cost effective to build "49 state cars", things just kind of followed along from there.
Otherwise I agree with him and one needs to keep in mind that he seems to be an electric solid-body builder judging from some of his and other posters' comments.

For you guys who mentioned "water-based lacquers" there seems to be some confirmation and vindication:
This from "Jim E" who simply sounds very credible to me due to his precise language:

"A couple of proviso's, nitrocellulose lacquer is available in different formulations so the whole drying vs curing isn't quite that straight up, neither is the use of these two terms as they don't really have a solid scientific definition, and we use them rather loosely.
"Regular" nitro (in other words no catalyst) is a drying or evaporation finish, however pre-catalyzed and catalyzed nitro lacquers both meet your definition for a "cure" as a catalyst has been added, however once cured some can be re-dissolved...
So this whole dry vs cure is a little hard to nail down.
I just spoke to the tech rep at one of our suppliers here in Toronto, a manufacturer of lacquer for a very long time. He tells me that the main difference between today's pre-cat and catalyzed lacquers, and the stuff (still available) I used to buy 30 years ago are relatively small and go mostly toward non-yellowing and non-checking agents.
At least with this supplier if it says nitro there is no acrylic or urethane components and no (what guitar guys love to call) "plasticizers".
At the end of the day lacquer to me is the easiest to apply and touch-up, and it feels the best under my hands, that's why I use it."


That whole thread is pretty darn good, but, the question now is: what exactly is Oxnard using when they spec gloss NCL finish?
Could it be the 95% water based stuff?
Somehow I really doubt it as I have a suspicion that stuff isn't nearly as easily re-worked if there's a finishing flaw during production as the traditional "30% solids/70% solvent" stuff that I think we all interpret "traditional NCL" to mean, for guitar finishes.
I'm kinda hoping Christopher Cozad or Tom or Chris/Acornhouse (or anybody) might be able to weigh-in as guys with "hands-on experience"
 
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kostask

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There is no "ban" as per the traditional definition of NCL. What is banned it the outgassing products (the so called VOCs) going into the atmosphere. If a guitar builder (in this context, it can be a factory or individual) is inclinded to do so they can invest in an air filtration system that will contain and remove the VOCs, so shooting NCL is possible. This is a cost and effort equation vs. the tonal/sales benefits of using NCL. Some builders make that investment, most don't.

Some new guitars ARE available with NCL, and they are built in the US. There are hand builders spraying NCL still, within the law. Some hand builders actually outsource the finishing of their guitars to people who only finish guitars, and those "finishers" also spray NCL. Investment in proper filtration is not a huge hit for a hand builder or small factory operation; it can be major dollars for a large production facility.

I am no chemist, but I don't think that NCL and acrylic are compatible. Acrylic is basically water/polymer based, and the solvents in NCL will probably have a (severe) degrading effect on those paints. I most definitely could be wrong, though.

P.S. The Monza was probably acrylic enamel, not acrylic lacquer. Lacquers, as defined as drying by evaporation of the solvent, hasn't been used in automtive applications for a long time. And mostly for the same reasons as it makes a great guitar finish; namely, as time goes on, the solvents outgas to the point where tehre are only solids left behind. Great for resonance in guitars, not so great for a metal bodied vehicle that is outside, exposed to sun, temperature extremes, and vibration (from the car being driven around). The Monza Spyder, with the V8 was a very cool car.
 
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adorshki

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I am no chemist, but I don't think that NCL and acrylic are compatible. Acrylic is basically water/polymer based, and the solvents in NCL will probably have a (severe) degrading effect on those paints. I most definitely could be wrong, though.
Right. That's what got me scratchin' my head too. It's tantamount to mixing oil and water.
Of course you can do that in mayonnaise by adding the lecithin found in the egg yolks. It keeps it emulsified.
Given all the ongoing advances in chemistry, I'm guessing there's a new "mayonnaise" class of acrylic lacquers. :biggrin-new:
(But I still suspect they're not the optimum choice for guitar finishes. Probably great for cheap furniture.)

P.S. The Monza was probably acrylic enamel, not acrylic lacquer. Lacquers, as defined as drying by evaporation of the solvent, hasn't been used in automotive applications for a long time.
Well this is where the term "lacquer" itself isn't limited to a specific definition of drying by evaporation of "solvent" in the sense of the powerful organics we're used to thinking of.
It just means it hardens by evaporation and in the case of acrylics, they're water-based by definition.
But they don't re-dissolve when wetted down again after drying the first time.
In this sense, they're definitely "cured" finishes.

And mostly for the same reasons as it makes a great guitar finish; namely, as time goes on, the solvents outgas to the point where there are only solids left behind. Great for resonance in guitars, not so great for a metal bodied vehicle that is outside, exposed to sun, temperature extremes, and vibration (from the car being driven around). The Monza Spyder, with the V8 was a very cool car.
Actually the properties of never being completely hard and thus able to stretch under all those conditions was what was supposed to make it such a great automotive finish.
So it was still a lacquer 'cause it was sprayed on and dried by evaporation as opposed to chemical catalysis.
The paint on my Monza was actually pretty fragile, it would even rub off on a towel or chamois after washing, if it was an enamel it wouldn't have done that.
It was kind of neat that one could "blend in" minor surface scratches, though. But trying to "rub out" the finish would probably have been disastrous.
AND it was a P.I.T.A. for body and paint shops because it only applied to cars made in CA for about the first 5 years "IIRC".
Couldn't mix the 2 paints when repairing body-work.
 
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JohnW63

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Well, the Governor is trying to outlaw cow farts, now. So what regs Oxnard Guild will have to abide by could be truely " up in the air ".
 

adorshki

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Well, the Governor is trying to outlaw cow farts, now. So what regs Oxnard Guild will have to abide by could be truely " up in the air ".
LOL.
They been workin' on cow farts for years, literally since the '70's.
Yeah I thought it was ridiculous at first too, but:
Supposed to be the single biggest source of methane on the planet. 'Nother ozone depleter.
First thing ya gotta remember is not to smoke around 'em:

images
 
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amnicon

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Ok, this is probably a super ignorant question, but I need a reference point to understand more about what I just read. What finish is on my '75 D40? and on my '96 GAD25?
 

adorshki

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Ok, this is probably a super ignorant question, but I need a reference point to understand more about what I just read. What finish is on my '75 D40? and on my '96 GAD25?

'75 D40 absolutely NCL, assuming it's original finish.
Reading between the lines I think what may have changed in NCL formulations over the years is the percentage of "Solids" (the nitrated cellulose) and exactly what mix of solvents were used among many available.
Toluene (the stuff that glue and paint sniffers love), methyl ethyl ketone ("MEK", really nasty stuff and one of the prime VOCS originally targeted by Clean Air regs) and acetone were the primary ingredients along with alcohols and a couple of other more obscure ingredients mentioned in this Wiki page for "Lacquer Thinner":
"Lacquer Thinner is usually a mixture of solvents able to dissolve a number of different resins or plastics used in modern lacquer.[citation needed] Previously, lacquer thinners frequently contained alkyl esters like butyl or amyl acetate, ketones like acetone or methyl ethyl ketone, aromatic hydrocarbons like toluene, ethers such as glycol cellosolves, and/or alcohols.[1] Beginning in the 21st century parts of the United States began a reduction of VOCs (volatile organic compounds) starting in Los Angeles, CA. The control of these lacquer thinners are completed by California Air Resources and South Coast Air Quality Management District.[citation needed] New ingredients to match air standards in lacquer thinner are now available such as Oxsol 100, soy methyl esters, ethylene glycol and there is ongoing development.[citation needed]"

So that tends to confirm statements that "Tody's NCL is a different animal than it was 30 years ago" but I'm not convinced it's not just as suitable for the purpose. It still dries by evaporating and the remaining solids are still crystallized cellulose.
Modern "plasticizers" might even render the finish more durable and less prone to checking.

So far, ALL the Made in China Guilds have what are called "poly" finishes, which in this case is short for "polyester", (the same stuff used for that impossible-to-open plastic packaging that's found everywhere these days), but "poly" is generic for "polymeric" and those range from urethane (non-water-soluble) to polyester (need to be catalyzed) to polyacrylics (water-solubles).
All the poly finishes need to be catalyzed in some way either chemically or more commonly in instrument/furniture manufacture by exposure to UV light (common for the polyacrylics).
This sets up bonds in the uncured (liquid) polymers that are now permanent, they can't be re-dissolved. So the finish is more durable but less easily repaired if needed, if even repairable at all.
Posts in this thread indicate that there are modern formulations that are repairable but I got that they're still not as "seamless" as NCL, which re-dissolves to blend with a fresh coat or just a patch of itself.
I've even "drop-filled" some finish wear from heavy strumming on the top of my D25 with clear nail polish which is also NCL, and you can still get acetone off the shelf in drugstore, as nail polish remover.
Quick side note, I just realized I think you made a typo re the date of your GAD-D25; they weren't introduced until '04.
You hava an '06, perhaps?
 
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