Is this a solid spruce top or a laminate/spruce

davismanLV

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Oooops, sorry. I somehow missed that post. Someone will be along that knows more about the Madeira line of guitars. I believe I've heard poplar was used before but can't be sure. I think most of our discussions have been about the plys of wood on the laminated, arched backs that are used on many models, but again, my memory isn't clear. Someone will know what they used.....
 

gjmalcyon

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The guitar is an A-30M Madeira by Guild. Could the inner ply be an inexpensive wood veneer like poplar or soft maple?

My wife's first guitar was a Madeira A-30M. We discussed the construction in this thread from January, 2013.

She gave the guitar to a friend's daughter (who loves it and plays open mics with it), but I recall looking at the sound hole edges with magnification and concluding it was a laminate top.
 

bobouz

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Back in the day when Madeira guitars were new & hanging in shops for sale, every one I saw was laminate.
 

Neal

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I see your point, Chaz.

It looks like the soundhole is bound, to cover the unmistakable layering of a laminate.
 

davismanLV

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Chazmo, doesn't your Orpheum have a bound soundhole? Does it look anything like this? They didn't bind soundholes on Madeira guitars to my knowledge. Usually a feature on very high end guitars. So, no, it doesn't look like that to me. It looks like a slightly rounded edge of a laminated top.
 

adorshki

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Usually a feature on very high end guitars. So, no, it doesn't look like that to me. It looks like a slightly rounded edge of a laminated top.

I blew those pics way up yesterday, and I agree, am more convinced than evere.
Also noted our new member is a professional photographer, the photos have his digital watermark on 'em.
Went to his website but no clue about those photos.
So we still don't know why he's asking us about it, or why he hasn't answered that question.
Trying not to sound snarky but I think we're being "exercised".
 

bobouz

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Back in the day when Madeira guitars were new & hanging in shops for sale, every one I saw was laminate.

Just to clarify re my comment above, this would have been in the '70s. If any solid top models existed, they were far & few between. Therefore if you own a Madeira from this era, the probability would be much greater that it is has a fully laminated body.
 

dapmdave

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Orpheums do have a bound sound hole, but it's done in white, matching the rest of the binding on the guitar. At least with the few that I've seen.
 

AoxoA

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I blew those pics way up yesterday, and I agree, am more convinced than evere.
Also noted our new member is a professional photographer, the photos have his digital watermark on 'em.
Went to his website but no clue about those photos.
So we still don't know why he's asking us about it, or why he hasn't answered that question.
Trying not to sound snarky but I think we're being "exercised".

Why am I asking? Because I was confused about it. Why was I confused? My opening post tells it all, "Hi, I think this might be a laminate with spruce veneer but it does appear to have some grain-like lines going down the soundhole. I am new to guitars. Hopefully some experienced members here can weigh in. Thanks."

Hopefully members here don't feel "exercised" in a negative type of way. If so, please accept my apology. I couldn't think of a better place to ask and I appreciate the input so far. Thank you!
 

AoxoA

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My wife's first guitar was a Madeira A-30M. We discussed the construction in this thread from January, 2013.

She gave the guitar to a friend's daughter (who loves it and plays open mics with it), but I recall looking at the sound hole edges with magnification and concluding it was a laminate top.

Lots of interesting talk in that thread. Thanks.
 
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gjmalcyon

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Lots of interesting talk in that thread. Thanks.

You're welcome.

The Madeira was replaced with a Guild D4 from a local Craigslist seller. I often refer to that model as the "gateway drug" for vintage Guild acquisition syndrome.

Stick around - the mods run a nice, troll-free board and there is much here.
 

adorshki

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Why am I asking? Because I was confused about it. Why was I confused? My opening post tells it all, "Hi, I think this might be a laminate with spruce veneer but it does appear to have some grain-like lines going down the soundhole. I am new to guitars. Hopefully some experienced members here can weigh in. Thanks."

Hopefully members here don't feel "exercised" in a negative type of way. If so, please accept my apology. I couldn't think of a better place to ask and I appreciate the input so far. Thank you!

Chris, (I'm assuming you're Mr. Hooper as named on Aoxoa.co website,) thank you for your even tempered reply, I did try to raise that flag as politely as I could.
I also forgot that new members' posts can be delayed while they're being vetted by moderators, and was wondering about lack of response overnight.
(EDIT): In fact, re-reading the thread now I see your answer to the brand question came up overnight, but still in the time sequence of the original post, and I missed it when making that post about being "exercised" this morning. All is clear to me now.
Apology not necessary (to me anyway) but still appreciated in the spirit of mutual good will.
Thanks for the complement about the assembled expertise here as well.
It is pretty very rare but occasionally we get "fished" by folks with a monetary motive to establish a value on a guitar without giving us full disclosure on the instrument's condition.
 
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adorshki

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As a new member my replies were still moderated. I told the guitar type but that post got put in the middle of the thread just now.
Right, according to time of original post.
It's happened a coupl of times lately, causing confusion on both sides.

Could the inner ply be an inexpensive wood veneer like poplar or soft maple?
Yes, poplar, larch and alder have been cited by our guru Hans Moust.
And I suspect it is "real" and not composite because my understanding is that those guitars' parts were machined in Westerly and shipped to Japan and Korea for final fitting and assembly, thus "Madeira by Guild".

I have seen a Madeira catalog that says, "Natural spruce top" with "Maple sides and back" and of course Internet ramblings saying it's solid, it's laminate, it's semi-solid, etc...
Even Guild's US catalogs can be a bit vague when it comes to lamination, and we usually only have to think about it in regards to back construction.
The rule of thumb is that if it's solid they make sure to let you know it, but if it's laminated it doesn't say "SOLID".
Lamination tends to get a bad rep as a "tone damper", especially in tops, but it's ok if done right.
 

AoxoA

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It is pretty very rare but occasionally we get "fished" by folks with a monetary motive to establish a value on a guitar without giving us full disclosure on the instrument's condition.

I am not interested in selling it. It was given to me. I'm going to use it as my learning guitar. When I upgrade it will be a Guild ;-)

Yes, poplar, larch and alder have been cited by our guru Hans Moust.
And I suspect it is "real" and not composite because my understanding is that those guitars' parts were machined in Westerly and shipped to Japan and Korea for final fitting and assembly, thus "Madeira by Guild".

Maybe it's possible to narrow it down by the color of the grain? The grain color looks like it matches the color of the spruce grain.

Does the poplar, larch, alder or soft maple part of the laminate "age" like tone wood?
 

adorshki

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I am not interested in selling it. It was given to me. I'm going to use it as my learning guitar. When I upgrade it will be a Guild ;-)
Got it, you could certainly do worse for a learning guitar, nice gift! And you're definitely in the right place to see buying opportunities when the time comes.
Maybe it's possible to narrow it down by the color of the grain? The grain color looks like it matches the color of the spruce grain.
Does the poplar, larch, alder or soft maple part of the laminate "age" like tone wood?
Can't recall those questions ever coming up while I've been here.
Not sure the identity of the center wood is ever deemed to be "relevant" to tone.
The aging thing has multiple components, and not everybody agrees on all elements.
For the top specifically, the wood fibers themselves get mechanically "stretched" or "loosened" on a microscopic level over time, and the resins that were present gradually break down and dry up too, but that pocess is influenced by humidity, and the finish also plays a role.
A lot of us favor traditional Nitrocellulose lacquer ("NCL") because it becomes drier and more resonant with age.
Along with gradual loosening of glue bonds around top edges all these elements are thought to contribute to o the "opening up" process.
Is the change audible?
It's been the subject of debate, but I'm a believer.
Still ,the primary purpose of a finish is to seal the wood against contaminants which would negatively impact tone, like oils or other liquids that would dampen top motion.
Essentially the top's like drum head, its vibration bounces inside the body of the guitar and comes out through the soundhole. In general anything that helps that top movement (in an acoustic guitar) is regarded as "good", it helps with tone and volume. So a too-thick finish can inhibit that, and is seen as "bad".
The "poly" finishes are extremely durable, whereas NCL is relatively fragile in comparison.

Guitars are happiest between 45-55% relative humidity.
In general, the drier the top, the better it should sound, although there's a limit.
Too dry, they're prone to cracking, or warping problems as the wood shrinks, too wet, warping as the wood expands and possible weakening of glue joints if it's made with hide glue, which all Guilds up through Westerly were, for sure.**
By definition, a laminated top is restricted in its ability to vibrate, it's the purpose of lamination, it increases the overall stiffness of the single layers to a degree greater than the sum of the parts, and they're all glued together besides.
And it's also why laminated tops are common in archtop electric designs, they're less prone to feedback because they resonate less.
So does the center mass "age"? Undoubtedly, but probably not to the degree or in the same way the spruce layers would. It doesn't have any exposed area to lose or gain humidity through, for one thing.
Also, the wood itself probably isn't ideal for top use by itself or it'd already be one of the popular top woods.
The spruce layers are probably doing all the real work.
BUT: Laminated tops (and sides and backs) are immune to cracking from drying out.
And some guitars have a real reputation for yielding great sound in spite of having laminated tops.
"Red Label" Yamahas from the '70's are one frequently cited example.
Madeira fans can probably offer more insights from experience..
So it appears that if the laminate is properly constructed it can still yield good sound, but in general a solid top's probably always going to have an advantage, given similar thickness and bracing. (yet another part of the top that influences resonating ability)

**Can't recall concrete confirmation that it was used after that, but it's probable Coronas ('02-'04) and Tacomas ('05-'08) did too. In New Hartford they started using Titebond for neck joints at least, in case this becomes relevant to you in future. Some of us are hide glue as well as NCL purists too. :friendly_wink:
 
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Quantum Strummer

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My favorite archtop for acoustic playing is a mid-1950s National electric (single pickup at the neck) with a Harmony-made body, all lam. It isn't as loud or dynamic an instrument as my '40 Gibson—all solid wood including a carved spruce top—but it's got a punchy warmth that invites you to keep playing.

When it comes to guitar woods, construction methods, glue types, finishes, etc. you can and should use established conventions as guides in deciding what to buy or play. Yet, in my experience anyway, individual guitars can and will confound those conventions.

-Dave-
 

davismanLV

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Laminate is of far less impact on other parts of the guitar. Sides, back, and other parts can be laminated and although EVERY part of a guitar contributes to it's tone, the soundboard is critical. Although there are exceptions, generally a laminated soundboard is going to be less desirable than a solid soundboard on a flat-top acoustic guitar. That's just the way it is.

Mostly, though, if you like the way this guitar sounds, you're good to go!! Play it, and enjoy!!
 
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