Would different strings help a F130R resonance issue?

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Hi all. Just joined and I have a question.

I have had my F130R for a couple of years. On the whole, very happy with it. However, I've noticed for a while that the 5th string has a very slightly dull sound, by comparison with the other strings. It was bought new and I don't know if it's developed slowly or if it's always been like like that and mu ear has just improved to the point where I'm more aware of it.

It is very only a slight difference and I'm not too bothered. However, I am wondering if a change of string type might make any difference? At the moment, I have it fitted with D'Addario phosphor bronze custom light. Has anyone experience of this issue? Might 80/20 make a difference? Any recommendations on strings from different makers?

Thanks

Jim
 
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Two apologies:

1. I should have made clear that I has a local luthier have a look at the guitar and his immediate observation was that the issue is a resonance within the guitar. However, as a maker of classical guitars with little experience of steel-strung, he was hesitant in going any further than that.

2. Sorry - I should have checked the spelling in the title of the thread. Disgraceful.....

Jim
 

fronobulax

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Welcome. Not sure why you aren't getting opinions/advice. I do know that mine would be uninformed and useless :)
 

Taylor Martin Guild

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I had a GAD a few years ago that had the same issue.
My Guitar Tech suggested that the nut may be too tight and opened it up with a nut file.
That helps a bit but it didn't totally fix the problem.
He said that it was inherent to the guitar.
I never found strings to help with the issue and eventually sold the guitar.
 

gjmalcyon

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I have had my F130R for a couple of years.

<<snip>>

Any recommendations on strings from different makers?

I have the same guitar, and it reacts differently than my other guitars to the strings installed. For instance, I put Martin Tony Rice Monels on The F130R and they sounded just fine. Same strings on my Tacoma-built DV6 sounded like crap. I'll take a look tonight to see what I have installed.

Has the dull sound on the 5th string (are you talking about the A or the B?) persisted after a string change?
 

gjmalcyon

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II put Martin Tony Rice Monels on The F130R and they sounded just fine. Same strings on my Tacoma-built DV6 sounded like crap. I'll take a look tonight to see what I have installed.

Turns out I still have the Martin Tony Rice monel strings installed on the F130R, and they sound fine. These are the MTR-13, "bluegrass" gauge.
 

adorshki

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Two apologies:

1. I should have made clear that I has a local luthier have a look at the guitar and his immediate observation was that the issue is a resonance within the guitar. However, as a maker of classical guitars with little experience of steel-strung, he was hesitant in going any further than that.

2. Sorry - I should have checked the spelling in the title of the thread. Disgraceful.....

Jim
First thing I'd do is put on new strings.
If they've been on there a couple of years, it's probably just time to change 'em. Even with low playing hours corrosion may be present if you live in a climate that gets high humidity.
Only other thing I can think of is to take a magnifying glass and look at the saddle under that string, make sure it hasn't developed a "flat spot" or a notch or some other problem (like a crack).
If you're actually talking about the "A" string, check to see that the string hasn't actually developed a break in the winding there.
If all looks good, try loosening it up a lot and then bringing back to pitch, see what happens.
In fact, if it's convenient, buy a single and just replace that one, see how it sounds.
D'Addario's are generally very good and consistent, but it's possible it's just a "weak one", and it's a pretty cheap test..
 

Neal

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You might also try moving up to Lights, or even Mediums. I used Mediums on an F-30 and it sounded great. I did take the precaution of tuning down a little when not playing it.
 
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First thing I'd do is put on new strings.
If they've been on there a couple of years, it's probably just time to change 'em. Even with low playing hours corrosion may be present if you live in a climate that gets high humidity.
Only other thing I can think of is to take a magnifying glass and look at the saddle under that string, make sure it hasn't developed a "flat spot" or a notch or some other problem (like a crack).
If you're actually talking about the "A" string, check to see that the string hasn't actually developed a break in the winding there.
If all looks good, try loosening it up a lot and then bringing back to pitch, see what happens.
In fact, if it's convenient, buy a single and just replace that one, see how it sounds.
D'Addario's are generally very good and consistent, but it's possible it's just a "weak one", and it's a pretty cheap test..

Again, I should have said ... it was like this with the previous set of strings as well. However, given comments above, I will try replacing the A with a slightly heavier string and see if that makes a difference. I will also have a close look at the saddle. If that doesn't make any difference, I'll try a different complete set of slightly heavier strings (such as the bluegrass strings mentioned above).

All this will have to wait until the weekend, as the luthier has the guitar to put a neck button on and repair a very small bit of damage to the finish (where I caught the top on the case lock!) :chargrined:

In the meantime, many many thanks to all for your comments. I'll report back on the success - or otherwise.

Jim
 

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I've had guitars with certain notes (typically on the 6th string) that sounded a little thumpy and had less sustain. I had an Alvarez jumbo that had it when I played the 6th string at the third fret and a Larrivee L that had the same problem to a lesser extent on the open E. I tried different string material, different string gauges, and different bridge pins. I changed the setup, checked for loose frets, etc. I never was able to correct the issues. It seemed to be a problem with a resonance in the guitar body matching the particular offending note. . . a.k.a. a wolf note.

Eventually I moved on to different guitars. The people who bought my old ones didn't notice a big enough problem to put them off from buying them, but it sure bugged me once I noticed it. (Maybe I should change my initials to O.C.D. :redface-new:) If the OP fixes the problem, I'll be very interested in finding out what worked.
 
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GardMan

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My (rudimentary) understanding is that "wolf tones" (notes with strong, sometimes dissonant ring) and "dead notes" (notes lacking in sustain and energy compared to others) can result from interactions between a notes/strings vibration frequency and the natural resonance of the instrument. There was a discussion on UMGF several months ago (I searched and was unable to find it)... IIRC, in guitars, the open A (5th string) is one of the most common notes to be affected. Apparently, there is no easy solution... because it involves changing the relationship between the string vibration frequency (different tuning?) and instrument resonance frequency (adding mass to the top, changing sound hole size, etc).
 

Big-Al

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I'm wondering if the dullness persists when you capo up?

. . . or if playing the same A note on the 6th string also sounds dull. It might be worth a try.

As an experiment with the guitar that had a dead G note on the 6th string, I tuned the A string down to G and the guitar had the same issue there. That pretty much told me that it wasn't a string or fret issue.
 
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adorshki

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Again, I should have said ... it was like this with the previous set of strings as well. However, given comments above, I will try replacing the A with a slightly heavier string and see if that makes a difference. I will also have a close look at the saddle. If that doesn't make any difference, I'll try a different complete set of slightly heavier strings (such as the bluegrass strings mentioned above).
Understood now, just didn't want to make that assumption.
With new members we don't know what their level of experience is, so I mentioned the stuff to eliminate first, basic mechanical probs.

My (rudimentary) understanding is that "wolf tones" (notes with strong, sometimes dissonant ring) and "dead notes" (notes lacking in sustain and energy compared to others) can result from interactions between a notes/strings vibration frequency and the natural resonance of the instrument.
Makes sense and tends to confirm the original diagnosis, it's like a phase cancellation (or doubling) effect.

As an experiment with the guitar that had a dead G note on the 6th string, I tuned the A string down to G and the guitar had the same issue there. That pretty much told me that it wasn't a string or fret issue.
That would also tend to confirm the mismatch of the instrument's resonant frequency to a particular frequency, "G" in that case.
 

Big-Al

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That would also tend to confirm the mismatch of the instrument's resonant frequency to a particular frequency, "G" in that case.

Also . . .

I bought the guitar new and owned it for a couple of years. During that period, it seemed that the dead G note diminished somewhat over time and the F# note gradually started to get more wolf-ish. That may be evidence that a guitar really does "open up" as the wood becomes more flexible from use, shifting the resonant frequency downward.

Or I could simply be full of beans.
 
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adorshki

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Also . . .

I bought the guitar new and owned it for a couple of years. During that period, it seemed that the dead G note diminished somewhat over time and the F# note gradually started to get more wolf-ish. That may be evidence that a guitar really does "open up" as the wood becomes more flexible from use, shifting the resonant frequency downward.

Or I could simply be full of beans.

Nope, I'm a believer, but I think there are additional factors contributing to the overall (opening up) effect.
 
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adorshki

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If that doesn't make any difference, I'll try a different complete set of slightly heavier strings (such as the bluegrass strings mentioned above).
Jim

Back to "simple" mechanical stuff:
Heavier strings should increase saddle "pressure" a little and could be just the thing, but that reminded me:
Those were built with bone nuts and saddles IIRC, and a known weakness of bone is that it can have "voids" in it which can cause that same thing, a "dead" sounding string.
That's one reason for the popularity of synthetics like Tusq, perfect consistency.
If the strings don't fix it that'd be my next avenue of exploration.
If $$ are a concern, new saddle first, then nut.
Nut material only influences unfretted strings while playing, but getting both done are relatively "cheap" in any case.
Assuming you like the guitar enough.
:friendly_wink:
 
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Thanks all for the useful advice. Once I get the guitar back from the luthier (this weekend, hopefully), I'll try out various of the options suggested here and I'll feed back the results, good or bad.

One thing that I saw on another forum was a suggestion of trying to affect the resonance by putting weight on the inside (such as a coin attached on the underside of the bridge) or putting some bubble wrap inside the lower bout of the guitar. I might give this a go first. Any thoughts out there?
 
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Bubble wrap?

Certainly can't hurt to try, but color me skeptical.

Me too, but since, as you say, it can't hurt - and I happen to have some bubble wrap - I'll give it a go. :witless:
 
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