12 String Tuning

Hey guys!
I'm almost embarrassed to ask this, but here goes. Should I tune my 12 string down 1/2 or a whole step. Right now I have it tuned to standard pitch.

For years I would not remove all my strings on my 6 string because I believed that it would cause damaged to the neck. My luthier told me that was an old wives tale and not to worry about it. As evidence he pointed out all the guitars in his shop with no strings attached.

I recently acquired a Guild Westerly F-1512E and just would like to know what the current consensus / experiences are in this group.


Thanks in advance for any input!

Kurt

Welcome.

It's been asked before but no harm in asking again. Unlike most of the internet we at LTG have more fun rehashing topics than making snarky comments telling people to use the search function. Maybe that will change if the built in search ever becomes helpful.

Anyway there are at least two schools of thought. One is that full tension decreases the time from now to the inevitable neck reset. So tuning lower delays that maintenance which can be pricey. The other is that the instrument was designed and built to be tuned to pitch and there is a notable decrease in volume and tone when detuned. So lowering the pitch is like buying a sports car and then never driving outside of the city and never getting to speeds above 30 mph.

This is one of those questions that has a lot of anecdotes behind it but not much science or verifiable facts. It is also like changing the oil in your car. Every 3000 miles as was recommended decades ago? Every 5000 miles as stated in the manual? When the warning comes on and tells you that you have 15% oil life left? And no matter what you do you will never know whether you were right. If the engine does not seize up or the neck does not need a reset does that mean you were "lucky" or that the conservative measure worked?

All that said, the D25-12 here is tuned to concert pitch. If it needs a neck reset while we own it then we will deal with that then. In the meantime it sounds wonderful and is easier to pick up and play with other instruments tuned to concert pitch, especially when the capo is in another guitar case

Kurt said:

I recently acquired a Guild Westerly F-1512E...

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Welcome to the boards, Kurt! Nice Guild jumbo 12-string! You're going to have to post photos, you know. :distracted: And audio, and video if you got it, haha.

Kurt said:

Should I tune my 12 string down 1/2 or a whole step. Right now I have it tuned to standard pitch.

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I'm a relative newcomer, but I play and keep my 14-year-old JF30-12 at concert pitch. Actually, it's usually in drop-D tuning, so just the low E strings are tuned down a whole step to D.

Kurt said:

For years I would not remove all my strings on my 6 string because I believed that it would cause damaged to the neck. My luthier told me that was an old wives tale and not to worry about it.

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I think your luthier is right. I think a guitar likes to have all the strings off once in a while, so you can rub a little lemon oil into the fretboard, polish up the top....

Thanks, guys. I've wanted a Guild 12 string since the late 70's. Around Austin a Guild 12 was sort of like a status symbol. I had a great Guild D40NT and (like a fool) traded it. Wish I had it back!

Kurt

Kurt said:

I recently acquired a Guild Westerly F-1512E and just would like to know what the current consensus / experiences are in this group.


Thanks in advance for any input!

Kurt

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Hi Kurt, welcome aboard!
First thing that occurs to me is that if the question is about neckset life, those instruments haven't been around long enough to answer that question accurately.
Another point is that they're not built the same as domestic-builts were, so I would NOT assume that what works for those works for the Westerly Collection instruments.
Yes it's true the US built Guild 12-strings had an industry-wide recognized reputation for durability as well as sound.
One reason for that was that they had dual truss rods up until about 2007.
Primarily that helped compensate for unequal tension across the fretboard but it certainly probably helped with straightness too (including an anti-twisting purpose).
Neck angle stability was due to whatever little secrets Guild put into their builds, but a genuine dovetail joint bolstered by real hide glue were at least one part of the recipe.
I know for sure the truss rod construction of the Westerly Collection isn't the same as the vintage pieces, and I don't think they use hide glue over there (it's got the best creep resistance of all glues used in woodworking, enhances neckset stability).
If I owned it, I'd definitely opt on the safe side and string it up with silk'n'steel lights (.010's) for best neckset longevity.
At least then you'd be dealing with lower tension even if you did tune it to "concert", but I might also tune it down for "growl" if it sounded better that way, and maybe even for playability.
12's can be a little demanding on finger strength if you're not keeping it up with daily practice.
Silk'n'steels carry a small volume penalty but Guild themselves used to offer 'em for a while in the '80's at least, if not before.
If those just don't cut it for you then yes I'd probably keep it a whole step down, for ease of transposing.
I actually have a buddy with an '87 JF30-12 and he actually uses silk'n'tseels tuned a 1/2 step down.
Makes it kinda fun to jam actually, I get to play scales in keys I wouldn't usually use.
:friendly_wink:

Kurt, welcome to the forum!

I have a 2013 (N"Q") F512 that has always been at standard pitch. No problems so far.

If you are using the .010-to-whatever strings pretty much standard on 12-strings, I would keep it at pitch. It will also help with intonation to keep it there. As you have a luthier to look at your pieces, have him check the relief in the neck when the girl is tuned to pitch; if its OK, then there you go and have fun! If its a little too much, then have him adjust it to where it should be and then check back with him after a little bit. I will bet it will be OK.

I almost, almost, bought a 1512 when I was hankering bad for a 12-string...but in my mind, and with Chazmo's F512 haunting me, I went with a New Hartford build for a little over twice the money. Then some months later I tried a different 1512...nice!...it could have satisfied my itch...but probably not my mind thinking "what is a new 512 really like." Enjoy your guitar...if you don't have the "King of 12-strings," you have the Prince! (or Princess) :victorious:

adorshki said:

If I owned it, I'd definitely opt on the safe side and string it up with silk'n'steel lights (.010's) for best neckset longevity.

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Right. I forgot to mention that, at least the .010's part. :culpability:

I had my D4-12 at a buddy's house and one day he opened the case to find. . .the headstock cracked! My luthier fixed it up real nice, had it tuned to F for a month to make sure it would hold (of course it did - i'm pretty sure it's stronger now than new!) and returned it to me at regular pitch. Was it the regular pitch that broke the headstock? Lack of Humidity? Old strings? Combination of all three? I'll never know. What I do know is that I tuned it down a whole step once it was home. I don't play it enough to be concerned with how it's tuned. If ever a need to tune it to pitch, I will. For now, she stays down a whole step!

mingus2112 said:

I had my D4-12 at a buddy's house and one day he opened the case to find. . .the headstock cracked! My luthier fixed it up real nice, had it tuned to F for a month to make sure it would hold (of course it did - i'm pretty sure it's stronger now than new!) and returned it to me at regular pitch. Was it the regular pitch that broke the headstock? Lack of Humidity? Old strings? Combination of all three? I'll never know. What I do know is that I tuned it down a whole step once it was home. I don't play it enough to be concerned with how it's tuned. If ever a need to tune it to pitch, I will. For now, she stays down a whole step!

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Headstock snaps are most commonly the result of a whiplash effect from an impact if it occurs inside the case.

I gotta admit I'd be highly skeptical of anybody telling me they opened the case to find it snapped. I probably wouldn't believe 'em except for one guy who's like a brother to me.
I guess it's possible that a crack or flaw in the wood was finally stressed enough over time to snap.
And there was one story here a long time ago from a member who literally heard his M20's neck snap while cased in a closet, IIRC.
Don't recall if it was the headstock but pretty sure it was in LA during a humidity spell, so wood might have even expanded too much, maybe overstressed an existing microfracture?

You shouldn't have a problem with your F1512 tuned to standard pitch. Something I consider to be preventive maintenance is if you are going to store the guitar for a period of time I would get in the habit of tuning it down when you put it in the case. This will relieve it of any unwanted stress. If you are finding it to be difficult to play in standard tuning I would suggest like others before to have your Luthier do a full setup on it. Also Daddario makes a set of Extra Light strings for a 12 string that are EJ41's. They are a Phosphor Bronze 9-45 gauge set as opposed to the 10-47 Daddario EXP38's that come stock on your guitar. I put a set of these on my F512 recently as I wanted to see if it would ease up on my left shoulder and hand from the EXP38's and they are extremely easy to play. To me they sound much better to me than the Silk and Steel models. Just something else to consider. Best of luck!

TX

WELCOME TO LTG!
I tune my 12 string down to D, not so much because it might be good for the neck, but primarily because I like the way it sounds.
And FWIW, I use D'Addario EJ38 Lights.

Stick around, you'll like it here, :encouragement:
Joe

Howdy

KURT - tervetuloa - willkommen - välkom - welcome - as you see , finnish is somewhat different from german - swedish - english.

I have here couple old Guild owners manuals from 70:s-80:s - on page 9 is written:

"It is recommended that because of the tremendous tension exerted by the 12 strings, your 12-string guitar be tuned to a lower pitch than a 6-string guitar - usually to B-flat, or D to D"

Later on same page it says : ". . . if you use light gauge strings ... ... you may tune in normal "C" tuning, E to E."


Then I have this nice old booklet - ( I bought it 1975 at Jame Berns Music 8417 Pillsbury ave S Bloomington MN ) - "Fretted Instruments Service Manual" - publisher GAMA - Guitar & Accessory Manufacturers Association of America - price 2USD
On page 31 is "Twelve string guitar tuning information" it is recommended that 12-string be tuned 4 or at least 3 semitones lower than standard guitar.

I personally prefer D to D tuning - exept most of the time I use open tunings - with 13/13 - 17/17 - 10/26 - 17/36 - 21/46 - 36/58 - or - 14/14 - 18/18 - 10/29 - 20/39 - 25/49 - 39/59 GUILD Phosphor Bronze - I still have plenty of those in stock.

Sounds massive and at same time heavenly light and crispy - sounds are so difficult to be put in words.

My D-212 stays at standard concert pitch unless it will be put away for a while, in which case each tuner is turned exactly 1/2 turn flat. Then, when I do pick it back up again, each tuner gets tuned up exactly 1/2 turn and it is ready for fine tuning.

All these replies show that there are many possible reasons to alter string gauges and tunings, whether for ease and comfort of play, or preferred sound, or concern for the instrument or whatever. There is no single correct way and each player must decide what works best. Here's what I do:

http://letstalkguild.com/ltg/showthread.php?146783-12-string-s-12-strings/page7

Happy 12erating!

All the replies have me thinking I should just do what sounds good. Actually tuning down a step suits my voice for singing and a hillbilly transposer (capo) is useful when I play with others.

Apparently this old joke is true:

How long does it take to tune a 12 string?

No one knows... it's never been done!

So you are lost in the forest and come across Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and a guitarist playing a D25-12 in tune. Who do you ask for directions?


Either Santa or the Bunny. You know the in-tune guitarist is a figment of your imagination.

12-string tuning in one easy lesson:

Step 1. Tune the first string
Step 2. Tune the second string....

Step 12. Tune the 12th string
Step 13. Tune the 1st string again
Step 14. Tune the second string again...

Repeat until crazy or the guitar has been smashed to kindling.

adorshki said:

I probably wouldn't believe 'em except for one guy who's like a brother to me.

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And he's exactly that guy. His word is unimpeachable. He paid for the whole thing. In fact, he originally offered to buy me another 12 string. I thought for about 12 minutes about asking him for whatever today's value of a D4-12 was and then adding my own cash to buy a jumbo 12 string, but quickly snapped out of that. I actually felt worse for him than I did about the guitar. I could just imagine that situation happening to me. Open the case and there's a cracked headstock....of a guitar that's not mine! I suspect that it was a combination of things and the lack of humidity was the straw that broke the camel's back. I lent it to him 3 years ago when my son was born (i needed a place to keep it!) and it still had the same strings on it. He was actually opening it to change the strings!

Anyway, he brought it to our good friend, George, who took care of it. The crack is barely visible on the front and, on the back, he actually took out extra wood after the repair was done and laminated in a few pieces of mahogany to strengthen it. Looks, sounds and plays great! At any rate, she's in the case and tuned down to D now!

-James

mingus2112 said:

And he's exactly that guy. His word is unimpeachable. ... I actually felt worse for him than I did about the guitar. I could just imagine that situation happening to me. Open the case and there's a cracked headstock....of a guitar that's not mine! I suspect that it was a combination of things and the lack of humidity was the straw that broke the camel's back. I lent it to him 3 years ago when my son was born (i needed a place to keep it!) and it still had the same strings on it. He was actually opening it to change the strings!

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There ya go, why I left that door open.
And for me it'd be that buddy who owns a JF30-12 himself.
I've literally watched him squirm and hesitate when he's got to tell somebody, not even family, an unpleasant truth, rather than lie.
We all need at least one friend like that.

I still own & play a 47 year old Yamaha FG-230 (yes Red Label for those that are Yammie fans as well!) that has held up just fine in concert tuning or dropped D for that time frame. Most of those years were spent wearing Ernie Ball Earthwood Lights or Extra Lights. They held up well given the abuse that guitar has seen (heat, rain, snow, Pacific Coast beach to Rocky Mountain peaks, and so on) and they were cheap. Today she wears John Pearse (still Lights:excitement and still maintains the concert pitch and or Dropped D tuning. Point being, if the Japanese builders could build one in the late '60's then I am sure any American built Guild's should be fine (but then we all knew that part already right?). The MIC Guilds could be a guess but I would expect some level of manufacturing requirements carried over when "Guild" set up the process in China. My cut would be tune it to where you like it and play on. If it starts to show an issue, then back if off a 1/2 step or so.