Guilty as charged, Your Honor...

Minnesota Flats

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 3, 2015
Messages
1,283
Reaction score
1,164
Call me a happy hypocrite: after spending a previous thread telling y'all how disappointed I was in an NS SF-II I got to try out, I've basically done pretty much of an "about face" and acquired it. It was a really good deal (too good to pass up, in fact) and as the new flats on it broke in, I warmed to its charms. Maybe I should change my screen name to "Starfire Slut" in acknowledgement of my obvious weakness.



Addition to the harem is on the right
 

wisconsindead

Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2014
Messages
165
Reaction score
0
How do you like the neck pickup and/or blend compared to just the bridge starfire?

Also, is that the natural gloss on the right? I can never tell the actual color of that guitar.
 

Minnesota Flats

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 3, 2015
Messages
1,283
Reaction score
1,164
"How do you like the neck pickup and/or blend compared to just the bridge starfire?"

The pup selector switch sits in the middle position most of the time with the all knobs dimed and the amp (TC BG-250-115 is what I've played it through so far) is set pretty flat with just a touch of gain and a slight bump to the treble and mids. The last couple of notches on the bass's master volume seem to goose the high end noticeably. I run a Hartke "Tone-Shaper" pre-amp between the bass and amp and most of my tweaking is done there.

The SF-II gives you a bit more more tonal range than the SF-I (on the bass end, as you would expect) but there is definitely something to be said for the simplicity of the SF-I. Took me awhile (and too much twiddling of the pup selector switch and bass knobs) to decide that I should just crank the SF-II controls and do most of the fine tuning at the pre-amp. With the SF-I, I find myself fine tuning with the bass's tone knob more: there are just fewer variables and interactions to contend with.

"Also, is that the natural gloss on the right? I can never tell the actual color of that guitar. "

It is a poly finish, so yeah, it's glossy, but not the overly-thick "syrupy" look I've seen on some other imports. That particular PIC makes the SF-II look almost orange. To me it's actually more of a brown It's definitely not a Gretsch orange or even close to that. The stock photos you see at the big box store sites make it look almost yellow, which is nothing like the actual color of the instrument. In real life, it looks exactly like what it is: mahogany.
 

wisconsindead

Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2014
Messages
165
Reaction score
0
"How do you like the neck pickup and/or blend compared to just the bridge starfire?"

The pup selector switch sits in the middle position most of the time with the all knobs dimed and the amp (TC BG-250-115 is what I've played it through so far) is set pretty flat with just a touch of gain and a slight bump to the treble and mids. The last couple of notches on the bass's master volume seem to goose the high end noticeably. I run a Hartke "Tone-Shaper" pre-amp between the bass and amp and most of my tweaking is done there.

The SF-II gives you a bit more more tonal range than the SF-I (on the bass end, as you would expect) but there is definitely something to be said for the simplicity of the SF-I. Took me awhile (and too much twiddling of the pup selector switch and bass knobs) to decide that I should just crank the SF-II controls and do most of the fine tuning at the pre-amp. With the SF-I, I find myself fine tuning with the bass's tone knob more: there are just fewer variables and interactions to contend with.

"Also, is that the natural gloss on the right? I can never tell the actual color of that guitar. "

It is a poly finish, so yeah, it's glossy, but not the overly-thick "syrupy" look I've seen on some other imports. That particular PIC makes the SF-II look almost orange. To me it's actually more of a brown It's definitely not a Gretsch orange or even close to that. The stock photos you see at the big box store sites make it look almost yellow, which is nothing like the actual color of the instrument. In real life, it looks exactly like what it is: mahogany.

Cool. I too play out of a bg250 115. It's my practice rig, but I've played with it more than any other. I have bounced back and forth with my Starfire II but I ultimately just too frustrated with the volume loss and weaknesses of a passive pickup blend. Thus, I usually just play from the neck pickup. I do want to try out/compare these reissues to the older models
 

Minnesota Flats

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 3, 2015
Messages
1,283
Reaction score
1,164
I've never had the good fortune to play a vintage one, so I guess I'm blissfully ignorant.
 

Happy Face

Justified Ancient of MuMu
Joined
Dec 11, 2007
Messages
916
Reaction score
239
"Cool. I too play out of a bg250 115. It's my practice rig, but I've played with it more than any other. I have bounced back and forth with my Starfire II but I ultimately just too frustrated with the volume loss and weaknesses of a passive pickup blend. Thus, I usually just play from the neck pickup."

I hesitate to write this given how ignorant I am about guitar wiring and circuitry. But I assumed the volume loss our Badger colleague refers to comes from having the pups wired in series rather than parallel. No?

Anyway, that was my understanding when I had a friend rewire the pickups on my M-85 to be in parallel. Volume loss gone.

I recall that some folks believe that having pickups wired in series offers some kind of sonic advantage. I now unequivocally disagree.
 

wisconsindead

Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2014
Messages
165
Reaction score
0
"Cool. I too play out of a bg250 115. It's my practice rig, but I've played with it more than any other. I have bounced back and forth with my Starfire II but I ultimately just too frustrated with the volume loss and weaknesses of a passive pickup blend. Thus, I usually just play from the neck pickup."

I hesitate to write this given how ignorant I am about guitar wiring and circuitry. But I assumed the volume loss our Badger colleague refers to comes from having the pups wired in series rather than parallel. No?

Anyway, that was my understanding when I had a friend rewire the pickups on my M-85 to be in parallel. Volume loss gone.

I recall that some folks believe that having pickups wired in series offers some kind of sonic advantage. I now unequivocally disagree.

Oh no. I was just about stable. Now I'll need to rewire a hollow body. Could you explain this further or lead to a good source? I've heard talk about parallel/series stuff, and understand the basics of it as it pertains to circuits, but always thought it was some silly guitarist pursuit. Part of my issue was also that I never felt the tonal quality of each pickup was restrained when mixing. That they blend into sounding like neither
 

fronobulax

Bassist, GAD and the Hot Mess Mods
Joined
May 3, 2007
Messages
24,708
Reaction score
8,836
Location
Central Virginia, USA
Guild Total
5
Congratulations. It's OK to change your mind especially when new information comes along. I look forward to hearing which Starfire gets played when, where and why. I'm somewhat fascinated about the justifications for keeping multiple instruments that are superficially very similar. (I will withhold my rationalizations for another time).
 

Happy Face

Justified Ancient of MuMu
Joined
Dec 11, 2007
Messages
916
Reaction score
239
Oh no. I was just about stable. Now I'll need to rewire a hollow body. Could you explain this further or lead to a good source? I've heard talk about parallel/series stuff, and understand the basics of it as it pertains to circuits, but always thought it was some silly guitarist pursuit. Part of my issue was also that I never felt the tonal quality of each pickup was restrained when mixing. That they blend into sounding like neither

I could try and put you in touch with the gent who did it. He probably could point you in the right direction. You can imagine how fun it was working on the M-85. I owe him BIG time.
 

Minnesota Flats

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 3, 2015
Messages
1,283
Reaction score
1,164
"You can imagine how fun it was working on the M-85."

I did a pup swap/jack replacement on an ES-335 once. It was a procedure that required a good deal of care, finesse and patience and certainly not one to which I would be inclined to apply the adjective "fun". It gave me some insight into one possible reason for Ibanez's choice to use those wide F-holes on their archtops, which, at least IMHO, was probably not based primarily on visual aesthetics.

______________________


"I'm somewhat fascinated about the justifications for keeping multiple instruments that are superficially very similar."

I have no bonafide justification, but my laundry list of rationalizations is quite impressive, I assure you. ;-)

Hey: the price was right and I prefer the sound and feel of Starfires to anything else I've tried. I'm old: I probably don't have more than another 10 good years at best before the "long slide" turns into a free fall, so why deny myself at this point?
 

mavuser

Enlightened Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2010
Messages
8,128
Reaction score
2,636
Location
New York
nice pair, well done! do u notice the SF II to be much heavier with all of the extra hardware? Mahogany is lighter than maple at least.
 

Minnesota Flats

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 3, 2015
Messages
1,283
Reaction score
1,164
Haven't stuck them on a scale, but I haven't noticed a dramatic weight difference. Just hefting them, one in each hand, they feel about the same. It's possible that the extra meat removed from the center block to create the neck pup cavity of the SF-II helps offsets the added weight of another pickup, 3 extra pots and a switch. If I tap on the top of the SF-I, it doesn't sound like there's a second pup cavity up by the neck (which one might expect as it would simplify production). But then, my SF-I was made prior to the release of the SF-II, so that may have changed once the SF-II was added to the pipeline. And, of course, I'm sure there's some weight/density variation from one piece of mahogany and the next.
 
Last edited:

wisconsindead

Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2014
Messages
165
Reaction score
0
nice pair, well done! do u notice the SF II to be much heavier with all of the extra hardware? Mahogany is lighter than maple at least.

My two magnet original BiSonic with two original pots and knobs is 215 grams total (0.47 lbs). No riser, screws, wires or caps...
 

mellowgerman

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 21, 2008
Messages
4,098
Reaction score
1,501
Location
Orlando, FL
Hmm, I was always of the understanding that:

-Two pickups wired in series are louder than the same two wired in parallel.

-Most two pickup basses are wired in parallel. Which results in the mid-scoop and perceived loss of some volume in the middle/both-PU selector position.

I'll admit that I could have this backwards but I've done tons of experiments, including a few 4-lead humbucker that I made switchable between series (typical arrangement for humbuckers) and parallel. Parallel, in accordance with my understanding, always yielded a "warmer" sounding, slightly quieter result.

If anyone can confirm or correct this, I would appreciate either or! I am now doubting what I had always thought I knew to be fact
 

fronobulax

Bassist, GAD and the Hot Mess Mods
Joined
May 3, 2007
Messages
24,708
Reaction score
8,836
Location
Central Virginia, USA
Guild Total
5
I am now doubting what I had always thought I knew to be fact

Welcome to the club although you are a bit younger than most members.

I have stopped trying to analyze analog circuits because it turns out that almost everything I thought I knew was wrong enough to not be helpful. I suspect things may be a bit more subtle that simple series/parallel. If Christmas tree lights are an acceptable analogy if they are wired in series then when one fails the string of lights go out. Parallel, only the bad bulb goes out. So I would expect two pickups in series to interact, probably be louder and I would want to know if the toggle switch actually cuts one PU out of the circuit. If it doesn't I think it is electrically of dubious value. Parallel suggests phase will be a factor and so some difference in tone and volume would be expected. So if I knew what I was talking about I would agree with you. Since I don't I await someone with knowledge.
 

GAD

Reverential Morlock
Über-Morlock
Joined
Feb 11, 2009
Messages
22,582
Reaction score
17,798
Location
NJ (The nice part)
Guild Total
112
Hey all! My first foray into the bass forum enticed by the mention of the serial/parallel debate.

Does anyone have wiring diagrams? Are we really talking about serial vs. parallel or is this a coupled/decoupled thing? If it's truly serial/parallel, are we talking coils within the individual pickups or actually putting the two pickups in serial (which would seem very odd to me).

Thanks!

GAD
 

Happy Face

Justified Ancient of MuMu
Joined
Dec 11, 2007
Messages
916
Reaction score
239
mmmalmberg once rewired the M-85 I bought from him. Perhaps he could pipe in here.

But I BELIEVE that I subsequently had my friend rewire the bass from what I thought was series to parallel.

Previously you got maximum volume only if one pickup was dimed the the other rolled down. If you rolled both down a bit, the output volume plunged. Now that does not happen.
 

mavuser

Enlightened Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2010
Messages
8,128
Reaction score
2,636
Location
New York
Fixit, Tom Jacobs, can install a 4-way switch so u have the option of both series and parallel for using both pickups...why choose? (yes one position is quite a bit louder than the other)
 

Happy Face

Justified Ancient of MuMu
Joined
Dec 11, 2007
Messages
916
Reaction score
239
I dunno. Just one more complication if you are playing live?

I recall there was a poll some years ago on TB asking how often bass players actually changed their bass and amp settings when they played out. The tweakers were a small minority. I was surprised how few players touched either.

As I write I'm in Renaissance immersion. I'm tentatively about to help launch a tribute sorta show of their songs. Some nice bass parts.
 
Top