the more knobs you have...

mmmalmberg

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I agree. It's very difficult to tell them apart. Sometimes more than others. Pretty amazing really. Goes to show the importance of all those electronics imo.

Or maybe the importance of who's playing it... Hard to imagine cutting out half of the top and replacing it with a screw-on panel did any good for the sound. Also, kind of humorously redundant to have a grateful dead sticker on it:)
 
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Hi All, I just joined. I love Starfire basses, because I love that early 70s Phil tone and Jacks tone in the JA. I have a '96 reissue bass that has the dark star bisonics in them. It also has an Alembic Blaster wired to the pickups. This goes to the Alembic SF-2 which goes into an Eden WR800. If you're familiar with the tune Wharf Rat from the "Skull ****" album.l, that's the sound I can dial in.

I'm also refurbishing a '68 starfire that was a basket case. It gets a new paint job, Alembic anniversary electronics and new hardware. I'll post pics when it's complete in a couple of months.
 

wisconsindead

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Or maybe the importance of who's playing it... Hard to imagine cutting out half of the top and replacing it with a screw-on panel did any good for the sound. Also, kind of humorously redundant to have a grateful dead sticker on it:)

Phil lesh sounded very different playing ken smiths and modulus basses. The electronics were far more important than him being the bassist. And there wasn't any other way to get all of that circuitry, which was integral to the sound, other than cutting it open.
 

Minnesota Flats

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Welcome, starfirebass. Sounds like you have some cool SFs. Looking forward to PICs.
 

adorshki

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Hi All, I just joined.
And welcome aboard!
If you're familiar with the tune Wharf Rat from the "Skull ****" album, that's the sound I can dial in.
Didn't really warm up to 'em myself until a buddy played a version of that medley'd with "Darkstar" and "That's it for the Other One" from a bootleg from '69 "IIRC".
But I was always a big Casady fan and have to mention the sound he got on "Water Song" on Burgers as being another milestone in his relationship with Alembic. I loved that tone.
I'm also refurbishing a '68 starfire that was a basket case. It gets a new paint job, Alembic anniversary electronics and new hardware. I'll post pics when it's complete in a couple of months.
please do!
:friendly_wink:
 

fronobulax

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It seems that whenever I talk about Jack's sound and approaching it myself, everyone is always talking about Jack's fingers, downplaying equipment and telling stories that boil down to "Jack sounds like Jack, no matter what he is playing and playing through". I find this credible because there are folks on LTG who do "know Jack" and because it has inspired me to experiment with right hand technique and I can get some dramatic variations in my own tone.

So along comes this thread where (different) people strongly believe that Phil's sound was very much his instrument and electronics. The sources and opinions also seem to have some credibility.

I am just amused and not trying to force a discussion of fingers vs. equipment that is only allowed to have one answer. I certainly would play through a Versa-Tone of one were available and might even believe I sounded better or more like Jack. I'll probably never go the "more knobs" route but having spent a lot of time with the Curtis Novak BSDS, I am much more open to exploring pickups than I would have been a few years ago.
 

wisconsindead

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It seems that whenever I talk about Jack's sound and approaching it myself, everyone is always talking about Jack's fingers, downplaying equipment and telling stories that boil down to "Jack sounds like Jack, no matter what he is playing and playing through". I find this credible because there are folks on LTG who do "know Jack" and because it has inspired me to experiment with right hand technique and I can get some dramatic variations in my own tone.

So along comes this thread where (different) people strongly believe that Phil's sound was very much his instrument and electronics. The sources and opinions also seem to have some credibility.

I am just amused and not trying to force a discussion of fingers vs. equipment that is only allowed to have one answer. I certainly would play through a Versa-Tone of one were available and might even believe I sounded better or more like Jack. I'll probably never go the "more knobs" route but having spent a lot of time with the Curtis Novak BSDS, I am much more open to exploring pickups than I would have been a few years ago.

Fingers are more expressive than picks. But I'm no jack casady nut so I can't comment much on him. But anyone who suggests it's all in the fingers is delusional. Wah wah pedals and different strings and amps etc exist for a reason. They make a difference, usually more so than the player.
 

adorshki

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Fingers are more expressive than picks. But I'm no jack casady nut so I can't comment much on him. But anyone who suggests it's all in the fingers is delusional. Wah wah pedals and different strings and amps etc exist for a reason. They make a difference, usually more so than the player.
Sure the equipment modifies wave forms, but with Jack it's been noted many times that no matter what equipment he uses, he always sounds like Jack. It's almost eerie.
And conversely, Mgod, who should know, has mentioned that exact replication of his equipment setup and even using his instrument is no guarantee of getting his "sound".
So we're talking more about recognizing hallmarks of a guy's technique as opposed whatever he uses to color his tone.
 

mellowgerman

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Fingers are more expressive than picks.

When it comes to fingers vs equipment, I think this is more or less the key to this discussion. Of course it's not to say that one method is better than the other, if the pick gets the tone or attack the player wants, then all the expressive capabilities of the fingers are irrelevant.
Personally, I play mostly fingerstyle but use a pick on occasion, when I want that specific percussive attack.
 

Happy Face

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And ... When using your fingers, what a difference it makes just WHERE you attack the string. Close to the bridge or up on the neck = a world of difference without even touching a tone control or pedal

I often forget this simple thing. And then smash my bass out of frustration with myself.
 
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Minnesota Flats

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"And ... When using your fingers, what a difference it makes just WHERE you attack the string"

IMHO, this is even more true with B-Sonics than with some other pickups.
 

adorshki

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And ... When using your fingers, what a difference it makes just WHERE you attack the string. Close to the bridge or up on the neck = a world of difference without even touching a tone control or pedal

I often forget this simple thing. And then smash by bass out of frustration with myself.

As a 6-string player I figured that same principle out after I'd owned my D25 for a few months, that there was a magnificently woody sweet spot right over the fretboard extension that I'd never noticed in my first 2 steel strings, and it's where I primarily fingerpick.
Right over the soundhole or even closer to the bridge with a pick is much brighter, actually better for playing "leads" in a jam.
 

fronobulax

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On his bass lessons DVD (Homespun? - the laziness is strong in this one today so someone else can ask Uncle Google) Jack mentions and demonstrates the dramatic impact the right hand position has on tone. In spite of those words of Wisdom, it was not something I was prepared to work with until I got used to playing the sweet spot Starfire since that forced me to confront my bad habits with my right hand position.

I know one classical guitar player who meticulously maintains his fingernails and because of that he can twist a finger "just so" and sound like he is using a pick.

I'm still thinking about "sound" and I do need to acknowledge and admit there are certain things that you can only do with equipment. But ...


 

adorshki

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I know one classical guitar player who meticulously maintains his fingernails and because of that he can twist a finger "just so" and sound like he is using a pick.
That's actually part of the regimen for classical training, learning how to maintain and use fingernails effectively, so it's not "just him".
 

edwin

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The bass isn't that complicated if you know how the Superfilter works.

The big hassle with it is that the filter circuits are noisy, as they were adapted from parts from the phone industry where very tight frequency tolerances were prioritized over noise (when multiplexing phone calls, you don't care if they are a bit noisy, but if the frequency tolerances are off, you get interference). So, bringing up the filters just creates noise.

The beauty of the bass is that acoustically, it's a simply stunning instrument with a resonance and bloom that is pretty much unmatched by any Starfire I've played. I didn't get to play it through a very good amp, but just playing it was a great experience. That said, my Starfire isn't that far behind, in terms of a good tone.

http://imgur.com/a/S2U04
http://imgur.com/a/U2HGi
 

mellowgerman

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Sort of relevant to this discussion, the old restoration burst SFB that my buddy Andrew and I brought back to life, that I also used during studio sessions in February (see photo) is about to be Alembicized! The other day I caught an intact 20th Anniversary Alembic filter preamp harness for sale and we scooped it up. It's not as complex as Phil's, but we're still stoked to try it out. The 20th Anniversary came with vol, vol, filter, filter, and Q-switches. So only 4 knobs... sorry guys ;)

Laughing_zps1ruluz4l.jpg
 
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Minnesota Flats

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I guess that building a bass like that is kind of akin to restoring an old car with vintage hot rod/speed parts (multiple carburetors, high-compression heads, dual-point ignition, etc.): there are much more practical and efficient technologies that have been developed, but it's nostalgic to fool around with stuff from a simpler time.
 

edwin

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I guess that building a bass like that is kind of akin to restoring an old car with vintage hot rod/speed parts (multiple carburetors, high-compression heads, dual-point ignition, etc.): there are much more practical and efficient technologies that have been developed, but it's nostalgic to fool around with stuff from a simpler time.

Not entirely. There are very good reasons to use the Alembic technology: sound. It's not just nostalgia. Alembic pickups and electronics are different than other manufacturer's offerings. They had a spare no expense design philosophy, which had some hit or miss history early on, but by 1980 was consistent and solid. While it doesn't make sense to use the original Big Brown filter electronics (and the whole quad thing for its original purpose is questionable, but a quad pickup for synth and processing purposes is viable) because the technology has improved and people still are installing Superfilters into their basses.

Nothing sounds like an Alembic equipped bass. Whether you want that sound is another issue, but I would argue the other sounds that people go for (the standard Fender P and J sounds that are ubiquitous and without which many engineers seem to be at a loss, for instance) are the nostalgic ones.
 
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