75 years ago today the Doolittle raid changed history

CA-35

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It was 75 years ago to this day that (16) B-25B Mitchell medium bombers were launched WITHOUT fighter escort from the U.S. Navy's aircraft carrier USS Hornet (CV-8) commanded by William "Bull" Halsey, each with a crew of five men for a total of 80 airmen (52 officers, 28 enlisted). Fifteen aircraft reached their targets, (13) aircraft ran out of fuel and crashed and (1) was ditched at sea after dropping their payload of bombs. The 15th landed at Vladivostok in the Soviet Union. All but three of the 80 crew members initially survived the mission. Eight airmen were captured by the Japanese Army in China; three of those were later executed by firing squad. The B-25 that landed in the Soviet Union was confiscated and the crew imprisoned for more than a year.

Only one of the 80 is still alive today; Col. Richard E. Cole and he is 101.

An interesting side note the tail number pictured below was aircraft 40-2242 which was the one aircraft that landed in Russia.

3f9146b4b4bb187391a3c38784dc7401


170417135235-doolittle-raid-plane-takeoff-exlarge-169.jpeg
 

adorshki

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There's also a myth that the planes barely got off the deck.
Actually with all the pre-mission practice and the carrier heading into the wind at launching speed, they literally "jumped", as that second pic shows.
But I always liked this one:
re%D0%B9ddul1.jpg


Note he didn't even have the full deck to get up to takeoff speed, there's still several planes on that carrier.
Pretty good flyin' for Army guys.
:biggrin-new:
 
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gjmalcyon

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First plane off the deck was Doolittle's, with the shortest available takeoff run.

My deceased "summers down the Jersey shore" landlord flew the solid-nosed B-25 variant with 8 .50 caliber machine guns in the nose for ground attack and strafing roles, and was proud of his role interdicting enemy troop reinforcements.
 
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Westerly Wood

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Was there not a movie recently starring Alex Baldwin re this campaign?
 

adorshki

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First plane off the deck was Doolittle's, with the shortest available takeoff run.
Forgot about that.
Just saw a caption for that photo listing Cole as the other pilot in Doolittle's plane!
Wow.
The other "Wow" was the decision to take off 200 miles farther out than originally planned due to having been sighted by a Japanese picket boat.
That pretty much guaranteed their fuel loads wouldn't get 'em to their originally planned destinations in unoccupied China.
That's guts.
One little clarification though:
Halsey was the vice admiral in charge of Carrier Division 2 which was tasked with carrying out the raid, and the Enterprise was his flagship, but Hornet was commanded by Captain Marc Mitscher who was actually one of the first naval aviators to attempt a trans-Atlantic crossing in 1919, and went on to play a pivotal role in the development of US Naval Aviation.
 

Westerly Wood

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Interesting bit from Wikipedia:

The raid caused negligible material damage to Japan, but it achieved its goal of raising American morale and casting doubt in Japan on the ability of its military leaders to defend their home islands. It also contributed to Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto's decision to attack Midway Island in the Central Pacific—an attack that turned into a decisive strategic defeat of the Imperial Japanese Navy (IJN) by the U.S. Navy in the Battle of Midway. Doolittle, who initially believed that the loss of all his aircraft would lead to his court-martial, received the Medal of Honor and was promoted two steps to brigadier general.
 

adorshki

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Was there not a movie recently starring Alex Baldwin re this campaign?
Not seeing anything, but there's a fine documentary series World War II in the Pacific that ties the whole Doolittle Raid-Battle of the Coral Sea-Midway timeline together.
Essentially the Doolittle raid sparked Japan to try to take New Guinea and the Solomon islands and plan the attack on Midway north of Hawaii, to cement its defensive perimeter in the Pacific and prevent any further recurrence of air attack on the home islands.
The New Guinea campaign led to the Battle of the Coral Sea on May 7th '42, the first naval battle carried out completely by opposing air arms and in which the capital ships never even sighted each other.
The US had 3 carriers engaged: Lexington, and Yorktown-class sister ships Enterprise and Yorktown.
Lexington was sunk, Yorktown was damaged, but the Japanese carrier Shoho was sunk and Shokaku which had participated in the Pearl Harbor raid, was so heavily damaged as to be non-operational.
That prevented her from being present at Midway from 4th-7th of June, where her presence might have been a wild card making the Japanese victorious.
Her sister ship Zuikaku's air crews were so depleted they couldn't be replaced in time for Midway, either.
But as it was, Yorktown was repaired in an incredible turnaround time at Pearl, and present at Midway along with Enterprise and..... Hornet.
Due to the US having broken Japanese Naval codes, all 3 of the newest and best US carriers, the entire Yorktown class, were lying in wait for the Japanese task force, and hadn't taken the bait of rushing to interdict the diversionary Japanese attack on the Aleutians.
All 4 of the Japanese carriers in the Midway attack group were sunk at the expense of the loss of the Yorktown, but the balance of naval air power in the Pacific was now irretrievably in the hands of the US, all in the space of 8 weeks from April 18th 1942 to June 7th 1942.
And the face of naval warfare was changed forever.
 

adorshki

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Interesting bit from Wikipedia:

The raid caused negligible material damage to Japan, but it achieved its goal of raising American morale and casting doubt in Japan on the ability of its military leaders to defend their home islands. It also contributed to Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto's decision to attack Midway Island in the Central Pacific—an attack that turned into a decisive strategic defeat of the Imperial Japanese Navy (IJN) by the U.S. Navy in the Battle of Midway. Doolittle, who initially believed that the loss of all his aircraft would lead to his court-martial, received the Medal of Honor and was promoted two steps to brigadier general.

Ahh, was composing at the same time you were.
I see Baldwin played Doolittle in 2001's Pearl Harbor.
Best movie I've seen about it though is the classic 30 Seconds Over Tokyowith a minimal amount of the usual Hollywood myth-making.
The way I understand it, Yamamoto was hamstrung by the Army's demands for Naval support in their campaigns to seize raw materials resources and was actually opposed to the original attack on Pearl Harbor but as an officer was honor-bound to follow orders and come up with the best plan he could, and he was recognized as a brilliant tactician.
The problem was he was also a brilliant strategist which the rest of the Japanese high command were not.
He knew that if the US couldn't be knocked out within 6 months of the Pearl Harbor attack the whole war would be lost, and he didn't think it was possible.
He'd gone to college in America in the '20's and knew what they could do in terms of production.
But due to the Army's demands he couldn't attack Midway as soon as he wanted to, until the Doolittle raid catalyzed the decision.
 

CA-35

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Ah my fellow WWII history buffs I thank you profusely for the replies and good stuff too.

Al are you sure about the commander of the Hornet in '42 I thought I read somewhere that Halsey was. Could be I'm wrong.
 
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Westerly Wood

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The problem was he was also a brilliant strategist which the rest of the Japanese high command were not.
He knew that if the US couldn't be knocked out within 6 months of the Pearl Harbor attack the whole war would be lost, and he didn't think it was possible.
He'd gone to college in America in the '20's and knew what they could do in terms of production.
But due to the Army's demands he couldn't attack Midway as soon as he wanted to, until the Doolittle raid catalyzed the decision.

I guess I do not understand how someone who came to the US to receive the benefit of a "free" society and get a killer education could then return home and be ok with bombing the US. Smacks of a total lack of personal integrity. Quite possible he did not have any real freedom back home to object to a military campaign against the US. He might have been killed for saying No...there is that I guess.

And, yes, Pearl Harbor was the movie. Such a long movie the Doolittle bit was kind of its own short movie inside the larger epic.
 

adorshki

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Ah my fellow WWII history buffs I thank you profusely for the replies and good stuff too.

Al are you sure about the commander of the hornet in '42 I thought I read somewhere that Halsey was. Could be I'm wrong.

Absolutely.
Halsey never commanded Hornet, but as mentioned he was the Vice Admiral in charge of the task force that included Hornet.
Even one of the references I read was worded poorly and could give the impression he captained Hornet.
Technically yes Hornet was "under Halsey's command" but it was captained by Mitscher who deserves his own credit.
Halsey was no slouch either, having chosen to undergo full flight training instead of simple air observer training as a condition for receiving command of the Saratoga in '35.
He was a firm believer (as was Yamamoto) that the aircraft carrier would replace the battleship as the primary naval capital ship and offensive weapon.
Saratoga successfully sneak attacked Pearl Harbor 3 times (!!!) in war games in the '30's, btw, but not under Halsey's command.
 

adorshki

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I guess I do not understand how someone who came to the US to receive the benefit of a "free" society and get a killer education could then return home and be ok with bombing the US.
From "the usual source":
"Yamamoto was part of the Japanese Navy establishment, who were rivals of the more aggressive army establishment, especially the officers of the Kwantung Army. As such, he promoted a policy of a strong fleet to project force through gunboat diplomacy, rather than a fleet used primarily for transport of invasion land forces, as some of his political opponents in the army wanted.[3] This stance led him to oppose the invasion of China. He also opposed war against the United States partly because of his studies at Harvard University (1919–1921) and his two postings as a naval attaché in Washington, D.C., where he learned to speak fluent English. Yamamoto traveled extensively in the United States during his tour of duty there, where he studied American customs and business practices."
Smacks of a total lack of personal integrity.
"Yamamoto opposed the invasion of Manchuria in 1931, the subsequent land war with China (1937), and the 1940 Tripartite Pact with Nazi Germany and fascist Italy. As Deputy Navy Minister, he apologized to United States Ambassador Joseph C. Grew for the bombing of the gunboat USS Panay in December 1937. These issues made him a target of assassination threats by pro-war militarists."
He was as much a patriot of Japan as Doolittle was for his country, just try to remember he was brought up as a Samurai whose self-definition and purpose in life is only as a tool of the Emperor. "Ours not to question why...":
"Yamamoto received a steady stream of hate mail and death threats from Japanese nationalists. His reaction to the prospect of death by assassination was passive and accepting. The admiral wrote:
To die for Emperor and Nation is the highest hope of a military man. After a brave hard fight the blossoms are scattered on the fighting field. But if a person wants to take a life instead, still the fighting man will go to eternity for Emperor and country. One man's life or death is a matter of no importance. All that matters is the Empire. As Confucius said, "They may crush cinnabar, yet they do not take away its color; one may burn a fragrant herb, yet it will not destroy the scent." They may destroy my body, yet they will not take away my will.[5]:101-102. "


Quite possible he did not have any real freedom back home to object to a military campaign against the US. He might have been killed for saying No...there is that I guess.
The political climate in Japan in the '30's has been described as "government by assassination".
Thee army was so powerful politically that it was almost impossible to oppose them and the policy of empire building they were fixed on without risking assassination.
 
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adorshki

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That's no myth they were stripped of everything except the engines and fuel tanks to make them as light as possible.
That's true but the weight removed was more than offset by the extra fuel tanks installed, and maybe I'm misunderstanding your meaning but that plane in the pic in post #2 ISN'T "barely getting off the deck", which is the myth.
And here I thought you'd like my "pretty good flyin' fer Army guys" joke.
:friendly_wink:
 

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Good points Al re Yamamoto. I figure he did what he could to prevent involvement, but as you wrote above, he would have had no choice and been killed if he resisted. I am sure he cried privately once he heard of the successful attacks on Pearl Harbor. I bet his heart ached.
 

adorshki

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Good points Al re Yamamoto. I figure he did what he could to prevent involvement, but as you wrote above, he would have had no choice and been killed if he resisted. I am sure he cried privately once he heard of the successful attacks on Pearl Harbor. I bet his heart ached.
Tough call about the tears but it's pretty well accepted he opposed the attack even though he drew up the plans.
He also had wife and kids to think of when it came to the assassination threats, hardly ever mentioned.
They would have been rendered homeless if not worse.
More about his feelings:
"Regardless of the provenance of the quote, Yamamoto believed that Japan could not win a protracted war with the US. Moreover, he seems later to have believed that the Pearl Harbor attack had been a blunder—even though he was the person who came up with the idea of a surprise attack on Pearl Harbor. It is recorded that "Yamamoto alone" (while all his staff members were celebrating) spent the day after Pearl Harbor "sunk in apparent depression".[3] He is also known to have been upset by the bungling of the Foreign Ministry which led to the attack happening while the countries were technically at peace, thus making the incident an unprovoked sneak attack that would certainly enrage the Americans.[4]"
From here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isoroku_Yamamoto's_sleeping_giant_quote
 

matsickma

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And today we have the President of China educated in the USA and incredible manufacturing capacity within China.

The USA "arsenal of democracy" may not have the capacity to manufacture many of the things we would need if all out war broke out.
I worked in defense all my life and have seen the decline of skills as time went on. Defense work requires a security clearance so being a USA citizen is a basic "skill".
One if the disadvantages of a lower manufacturing base is talent with "hands on" skills become hard to come by.
M
 
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