Value '76 Guild F-412

adorshki

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Some more pics, it these shows anything.




Well my tube's pretty old and kind of dim, but string height looks ok from those.
Ideally we'd like to see shot from exactly the same plane as the fretboard, of the strings' height above the 12th fret.
For the bridge/saddle we'd like to see the same, from the same plane as the top. We're trying to gauge saddle height with an ideal of a minimum of 1/8" of height.
What we're looking for is evidence of the saddle being shaved down to a degree that might be a sign that the neck needs resetting.
In a nutshell:
When a neck starts yielding to years of string tension, it starts to get pulled "forward" and this makes the strings get higher above the frets especially as you go up the board.
Shaving the saddle is a stop-gap measure to postpone the expensive reset job, but it's not an ideal solution since it normally reduces the guitar's sound output, among other things.
The best way to gauge need for reset is to lay a straightedge along the fretboard (after making sure truss rod is adjusted correctly for flatness, that it's not bowing forward itself) and extending it to the bridge. Ideally it will meet the top of the bridge precisely.
If it falls below the top of the bridge it could mean a reset's needed.
There are tolerances on the "ideal" specs, we've heard of Guilds being built with alignment as much as a couple of millimeters or so below the top of the bridge, and others that sank that far over the years and then stabilized.
The related spec is for combined height of bridge and saddle themselves: the "ideal" is about 1/2", with tolerance around 1/16"-1/8"or so.
This is to check that the bridge and/or saddle haven't already been shaved, which could give a false impression of a good neck angle when the alignment check is performed.
Bridge height is also related to bridge mass, mass contributes to top movement, also, if it's too thin it's more prone to cracking at the saddle slot.
I realize it might be difficult to explain or ask an un-knowledgable seller to perform these checks, and I also wouldn't ask the same type to adjust trusses on a Guild 12, that takes more than the average level of skill, but at least you've got the concepts now in case they're handy.
 
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TruckstopChuckie

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I understand every word, but I'm not sure if the seller does...
Going to ask for pics of the bridge saddle and if he could take a picture with a ruler or something similar that goes across the neck and back to the bridge.

We'll see.
 

adorshki

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I understand every word, but I'm not sure if the seller does...
Right. No way of knowing how knowledgeable or co-operative they are until you ask.
Actually I just edited that post for a bit more clarity but was delayed getting the edit updated.
With new members we can't know how much they know about this stuff yet, but figured you may want to proceed with asking the questions as quickly as possible and just put it out there.


Assuming bridge and saddle are in good shape, then we'd like to see action (distance between bass E and top of 12th fret) at around about 5.5-6/64".
Even that's high for a lot of folks, but it was Guild's set-up height during late Westerly and Corona at least.
All 3 of mine came out of the factory that way, and I like it for the best balance between good crisp clear notes and ease of fretting, and heavy strumming without buzzing.
Here's another place saddle height is important: You lower action at the 12th fret by lowering the saddle by 2 X the desired lowered height. (1/16" lower at saddel =1/32 lower at 12th fret)
IF you've got a "tall" saddle, say, a full 1/4" or even 3/8" tall, you've got enough room to lower action at 12th fret by about 1/32 or even 3/64" and still have decent saddle height for best sound output.
So a guitar showing a full 1/8" (8/64) of action at the 12th fret isn't too worrisome if the saddle's just "too tall" and the neck alignment is good.
 
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TruckstopChuckie

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Your contribution is much appreciated. This is good reading. :applause:
I've asked if the seller could measure the neck/bridge height. We'll see if I get a descent response or if I just scare him off.
 

adorshki

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Your contribution is much appreciated. This is good reading. :applause:
I've asked if the seller could measure the neck/bridge height. We'll see if I get a descent response or if I just scare him off.

If he takes the measurement right at the front of the bridge. from the top to the bottom of one of the D strings, that'll be close enough to get "combined height", but make sure it's a true vertical measure.
That'll at least save asking him measure bridge and saddle separately, but I did it that way on mine (separately, at the tallest point of the curvature) a few years back, when I got curious.
 

TruckstopChuckie

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Seller's not capable of measuring the neck vs bridge height, so I won't know anything before I take a look at it in person.
I also asked about the silver dot inlays. He thought it was only cosmetics... He had bought it from a music store, but could not remember if it was bought new or second hand.... Sounds weird, but I guess he have had it for a long time, and people forget all sort of things...
 

adorshki

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Seller's not capable of measuring the neck vs bridge height, so I won't know anything before I take a look at it in person.
I also asked about the silver dot inlays. He thought it was only cosmetics... He had bought it from a music store, but could not remember if it was bought new or second hand.... Sounds weird, but I guess he have had it for a long time, and people forget all sort of things...

I agree with everybody else about the dots, they're probably Barcus-Berry "Hot Dots" which Guild did actually use for a short while right about that time and they're in the right place "IIRC".
They were a very early form of piezo pickup and actually still have a "cult following" of the amplifier they made to work with 'em.
Certainly doesn't detract from value.
 

Nuuska

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Hello

If the Barcus-Berry Hot Dots still have their cables inside the guitar, they might be quite usable ( depending on how they were glued ) - but it is VERY important to use preamp with quite high - say 1MOhm - input impedance. With lower impedances you start losing low end and the sound gets "screechy".
If they were glued with epoxy, then there is a chance they sound o.k.
With any softer glue they are not nearly as good.

I used to have those some forty years ago.
 

TruckstopChuckie

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Even if the system might be gone (haven't asked him if it has a pickup system in it or not), the silver dots wouldn't bother me much. Seller haven't answered my latest mail, but I don't think he's like the average internet user which spends hours in front of his laptop.

If it still got the BBHD, would it be something worth holding on to, or is the system passé compared to todays systems? My experience with various acoustic pickups are pretty limited. I tend to hate piezo except when playing with a loud band where one need a certain sound to cut through. Got LR Baggs Lyric in my D-18GE which I like a lot and on my way of putting in a JJB-Prestige 330 (which I believe is basically the same components as K&K Pure Mini) in my Stonebridge 00m32sm.
 

adorshki

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If it still got the BBHD, would it be something worth holding on to, or is the system passé compared to todays systems?
Yes it's been reported to be pretty primitive compared to modern systems.
Some of that might be due to the impedance requirements of the preamp, I wasn't aware of that wrinkle myself, and that may be true of others who aren't aware of it, but the term "piezo quack" has been used about them.
The good news is that (assuming nothing else has been added), the saddle slot is still clear if you do want to install a UST or soundhole type and just bypass the "BBHDs"
But I don't think removing the actual sensors would be an easy job and maybe not even possible without damaging the bridge.
Heck if the wiring's still place it might even be possible to carry 2 pickups and run 'em through a switch ahead of the jack, maybe velcro it inside the soundhole or something.
 

Nuuska

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adorshki; it might even be possible to carry [I said:
2[/I] pickups and run 'em through a switch ahead of the jack, maybe velcro it inside the soundhole or something.

Hello

Or use stereo jack and Y-cable to feed both systems into separate preamps.
 

TruckstopChuckie

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Owner bought it in the late 80's or early 90's. He's retired and used to have a job that required a lot of travelling. Based on the pictures I don't think he did a lot of touring or gigging on regular basis, so I guess it's in pretty good condition. Mostly he is just an enthusiast.

Well. Three more weeks to go in wonderful DC before we're heading back to Norway. Hopefully it's spring and not winter when we get back.
 

adorshki

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Owner bought it in the late 80's or early 90's. He's retired and used to have a job that required a lot of travelling. Based on the pictures I don't think he did a lot of touring or gigging on regular basis, so I guess it's in pretty good condition. Mostly he is just an enthusiast.
If your guess is correct I think you'll be pretty pleased.
Guilds had a reputation for being "built like tanks" and that seems to be particularly true in that mid-'70's period.
Late '90's were a lot lighter, for example.
My main concern at this point would be checking that neck alignment.
40 years of string tension ain't kind but if it was strung with extra lights or at least lights and maybe even backed off during storage, you might actually have a pleasant surprise.
If it's good I'd say "grab it!!" and good luck!
Even if it's not good, it might be worthwhile getting the neck re-set if the guitar's at the right price.
Most folks agree just about any vintage Guild 12-er that only needs re-setting is worth re-setting if one isn't concerned with whether or not it winds up "costing more than it can be sold for", but the counterpoint is that you can't buy that kind of quality NEW these days for what you pay even for a re-worked guitar.
And it's hard enough to find 'em that old in decent condition in any case.
I'd be sure you've found someone willing and capable of doing the work before consummating a purchase as Guilds have a reputation for being difficult to reset and it's justified in some cases. That guitar falls into that category.
During the era they kept a pot of hide glue continually re-filled and it gradually became contaminated with metal shavings, this is a true recollection from respected luthier Flip Scipio who worked there for a while in the early '80's.
Anyway that alone could make breaking the neck loose a bit difficult, but we've also heard reports of different woods in the neck and the neck block expanding at different rates under steam and effectively tightening a neck joint instead of loosening it (may not apply here, not sure); they used a LOT of hide glue in the joint and the surface area covered is larger than most other makers'; and finally their method of finishing the guitar after meant the seam between neck and body was sealed over and requires careful opening prep work for a clean and easy separation.
We've even heard tales of requiring a full day and a half under steam for the joint to finally break loose.
After that things get harder.
(Just kidding!! :glee:)
Anyway, it helps to have the services of a luthier who knows or at least has been warned about these issues.
 
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TruckstopChuckie

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If neck reset is the only way to go the service guy/luthier that works for VintageGitar, by far Norway's by far greatest guitar shop, I think was sn apprentice at Larrivee at some time... Well, I know which guy to use.
 

adorshki

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If neck reset is the only way to go the service guy/luthier that works for VintageGitar, by far Norway's by far greatest guitar shop, I think was sn apprentice at Larrivee at some time... Well, I know which guy to use.

Slightly off-topic but I hope you can last out the excitement of those next 3 weeks in "wonderful DC" until it's back to quiet old Norway.
:biggrin-new:
 

TruckstopChuckie

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:) Haven't touched a guitar in five weeks, I think I can manage the next three weeks as well...
 
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adorshki

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Looks like somebody got a NGD yesterday...., but unfortunately not me... :concern:

Dang. But a nice JF30-12 (slightly blinged down F-412) ought to get through Customs pretty easy, they all predate any of the potential ebony/rosewood hurdles, I think.
IF there's still enough time and $$ works.
 

TruckstopChuckie

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Nah, it's still time but even though I tend to stay clear of the 'bling', that pimped up look of a F-412 is what I want.
We didn't talk price, but I just got a reply that he actually got close to $2600 for it... Isn't that a tad too much? I guess I would've turned it down if I knew he was demanding that type of money for it.
 
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