Tuning Question (sort of)

steve488

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OK so here is the scenario: 47 year old guitar (12 string) wherein the B string pair hold their tension fine but deviate in pitch from about the third fret to about the 7th. Essentially when matched open all is fine, but notes higher on the neck are "off". THis condition was not present when new, but that pair has always been tougher than the other 10 strings to tune. If it matters, the saddle is not compensated. All the other string sets seem to be fine. Therefore the question is - is this likely due to fret issues, bridge issue or something else. (we are soliciting expert and all other opinions here)

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adorshki

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ThHis condition was not present when new, but that pair has always been tougher than the other 10 strings to tune.
I'm going to hazard you just couldn't hear it when new, or maybe the guitar's "settled in" just enough that it's happening now. Very small incremental changes of alignment over the years now make that inherent flaw more audible.
If it matters, the saddle is not compensated.
It's exactly why acoustic saddles get compensated at the "B" string. The chromatic scale is not a mathematically linear progression by length of string and the B string is actually slightly longer than ideal to render proper tuning, without a compensated saddle.
Also, tuning a guitar to exact pitch according to a tuner frequently yields this kind of result.
An open "E" or "A" chord just doesn't sound quite right somehow.
A lot of us have learned to slightly "sweeten" the tuning by going a bit lower on the bass strings and a tad higher on the trebles. then things are equalized at the higher frets and intonation doesn't sound so far off.
I'm willing to bet a compensated saddle would fix the problem since it's specific to the B string(s).
 

steve488

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Adorshki - that has been my thought before so that might be in the future....

Geo - to be quite honest I have never made a point of checking them at the 12th fret. I guess I have homework tonight.

Thanks guys!!
 

steve488

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Geo - Homework complete. Bass side string seems to be (to my ears anyway) right where it should be. Treble side string however is slightly on the flat side.

I would not be quite so puzzled if the pair stayed tuned together but went flat or sharp. Having just one string of a "matched" pair go flat compared to the other seems more challenging. If it was all saddle then it seems there would have to be a slight step between the two strings. Not impossible but not easily created by random accident either. Likewise if the fret crown was off or angled somehow - theoretically possible but not easy to actually do with "normal" processes. Perhaps it is some combination of both conditions and 45 years of play (imperfect fret crown, imperfect saddle and fret wear?).
Maybe there is too much engineer in me but I would like to figure it out and resolve the issue.....

Thanks again
 

adorshki

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Having just one string of a "matched" pair go flat compared to the other seems more challenging.

On the assumption that there's not really been any substantial changes in saddle or nut slots (I'd expect 'em to wear evenly) even though they're legitimate questions:
Tuning machine slipping ever so slightly after all these years?
Maybe just a slight metallurgic flaw in the one that goes flat?
Does it keep happening with new strings? (Then I'd look at tuner, does it have friction adjustment screws? Or maybe swap 'em and see if problem shifts to the other string?)
 
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steve488

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On the assumption that there's not really been any substantial changes in saddle or nut slots (I'd expect 'em to wear evenly) even though they're legitimate questions:
Tuning machine slipping ever so slightly after all these years? - Certainly a possibility
Maybe just a slight metallurgic flaw in the one that goes flat? Tuning Machine or string? For the machine that is an unknown. As for the string, it seems unlikely as the variance has occurred on many string sets. One thing I have not closely looked at is if there was more issue with a certain string size. It currently wearing John Pearse lights. In similar manner, I have not paid close attention to note if it is always the treble string that seems off or if sometimes it is the bass side. Who would think such a seemingly simple question would become so complex.... I guess I have some experimenting to do.
Does it keep happening with new strings? (Then I'd look at tuner, maybe swap 'em and see if problem shifts to the other string)May have to try this at some point.

Thanks again to all
 

adorshki

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Tuning Machine or string?

I meant the string itself but I see you eliminated that since it happens in different sets.
I'd expect matched gauges in the same set to be from the same batch of wire.
Also I added a question about whether your tuners have friction adjustment.
But since it's the "B" course I'm still going with a compensated saddle to compensate for very small changes in geometry after all these years, unless of course neck's actually out of line or frets/nut/saddle are notched.
Good luck have a great weekend!
 

JohnW63

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Have you tried smoothing the nuts slots on those strings with abrasive cord ? If the strings don't move through the nut easily, they can catch and cause tuning issues, and perhaps go out of tune after playing.
 
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