Buying old, vintage Guilds

jmascis

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I'm new to guild so I apologize in advance if I'm ignorant.

But...I've seen some okay deals lately on CL, but won't most of these need neck resets?

The owner of the most recent inquiry won't even give me the action at the 12th fret. Lol. I wonder what he is hiding.

My luthier, Jim Witt in San Luis, who is consider a great luthier, said he won't even do neck resets on Guilds because of the complexity. It's like a $1,200 job in California that almost nobody is willing to take on. To me it makes the vintage Guilds worthless. Has Guild solved this at all with their new builds and made neck resets easier? I just purchased an M-20 which I noticed uses a Mortise and Tenon joint instead of a Dovetail. Hopefully that makes a neck reset easier/possible.

Any thoughts on Guild and their neck reset problem? It seems a real issue, at least around here, as the two best luthiers both told me no way they're doing a rest on a Guild, and since it's such a huge job I can expect to pay over 1k. Jim Witt added he loves Guilds and owns one but won't do a reset on them.
 
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gilded

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The 'problem' is that the exact location of the dove tail join on Guilds are in slightly different spots over the years and there is no formula to understanding them.

You also have to come in at a different angle with the steam needles compared to most guitars, because you are searching for the open space to shoot the steam into.

As well, some Guild neck joins seem to have about a pound and a half of glue in the dove tail pocket. That doesn't help things.

Translation, it's easy to crack a neck heel. But hey, all you have to be is fearless and you can get the job done.
 

jmascis

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The 'problem' is that the exact location of the dove tail join on Guilds are in slightly different spots over the years and there is no formula to understanding them.

You also have to come in at a different angle with the steam needles compared to most guitars, because you are searching for the open space to shoot the steam into.

As well, some Guild neck joins seem to have about a pound and a half of glue in the dove tail pocket. That doesn't help things.

Translation, it's easy to crack a neck heel. But hey, all you have to be is fearless and you can get the job done.

Is the same thing happening on the new Guild builds?
You would think with the advent of the internet they would learn and realize word has passed around that the resets are extremely difficult!

It's a shame because I love the sound of Guilds more than any acoustic I've played, yet that reset issue always is lingering...there are so many nice ones on CL that I am interested in that I just know will be money pits.
 

richardp69

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I've had neck resets done on several Guilds over the years. One was at Elderly and the cost was about $450 if I remember right (8 years ago or so). I've had two local Luthiers do neck resets on other Guilds and in both cases they were $325. Admittedly, the finish work by Elderly was significantly better than by my local guys. But still, I guess my point is I've never experienced anything anywhere near the cost levels you're quoting. I also never heard any of them tell me there was boatloads more work done to reset a Guild neck than any other major Manufacturer and nobody yet has refused to take on the work.

Not sure living in California should be a factor but who knows?? Maybe it is.
 

jmascis

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I've had neck resets done on several Guilds over the years. One was at Elderly and the cost was about $450 if I remember right (8 years ago or so). I've had two local Luthiers do neck resets on other Guilds and in both cases they were $325. Admittedly, the finish work by Elderly was significantly better than by my local guys. But still, I guess my point is I've never experienced anything anywhere near the cost levels you're quoting. I also never heard any of them tell me there was boatloads more work done to reset a Guild neck than any other major Manufacturer and nobody yet has refused to take on the work.

Not sure living in California should be a factor but who knows?? Maybe it is.

Interesting. That was definitely not my quote, and Jim added, "Unfortunately, I don’t do Guild neck sets anymore. Because of the way Guild builds their neck joints (unlike Martin) it’s almost impossible to remove the neck with out damaging the guitar. The Guilds that I have dealt with and read about are all the same. I love Guilds. You just have to find one with no neck issues. My first guitar was a guild, and I still have it. Gibson’s are also harder to deal with because of the neck joint. Most places that charge $500 for a Martin neck set charge $900 for a Gibson. Hope this helps.
Jim"

He's considered one of the top luthiers in the State.

That big shop up in SF (can't remember the name...Gryun?) charges $1200 for a Guild reset.
 

txbumper57

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If you find a Guild you like and it ends up needing a Neck reset or other major work you should get in touch with "Fixit or "Dapmdave" here on the forum as they are with Jacobs Custom Guitars in Florida. You can ship it to them and I am sure they would gladly take it on after inspecting what needs done. They do Amazing work from refinishes to Complete Restorations and they were the first Guild Repair shop to be Authorized by Guilds new owners. One or both of them also have first hand vintage Guild experience as they worked for Guild in Westerly back in the day. They have done several members guitars here and if my Local Luthier can't take care of an issue they would be the first and probably only folks I would send any of my Guilds to.

TX
 
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Default

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Send it to Fixit is pretty much the standard answer to "my luthier won't touch this". He's beyond good.
 

jmascis

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If you find a Guild you like and it ends up needing a Neck reset or other major work you should get in touch with "Fixit or "Dapmdave" here on the forum as they are with Jacobs Custom Guitars in Florida. You can ship it to them and I am sure they would gladly take it on after inspecting what needs done. They do Amazing work from refinishes to Complete Restorations and they were the first Guild Repair shop to be Authorized by Guilds new owners. One or both of them also have first hand vintage Guild experience as they worked for Guild in Westerly back in the day. They have done several members guitars here and if my Local Luthier can't take care of an issue they would be the first and probably only folks I would send any of my Guilds to.

TX

that's great to know, thanks.

if those guys find this thread, i would be curious to hear what they charge for a reset.
 

fronobulax

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We don't have enough experience with the new Oxnard Guilds to know when they will need resets, if they will need resets and how difficult they would be. I'd go so far as to speculate that any Oxnard guitar that has needed any work has had it done under warranty at the factory.

With all respect to your luthier, when I was talking to folks in the Mid-Atlantic about getting a Guild neck reset I had a much wider range of responses. The ones who were not interested tended to cite economic factors. They said they did not make as much money resetting Guilds or they didn't want to "work that hard". Some said no problem but wanted some kind of contingency - they were going to exceed the original estimate if certain issues occurred. One did not want to do it unless non-refundable cash was paid up front. If the owner abandoned the instrument and the shop was forced to sell it they did not think they could get the cost of labor back. Finally one person listed all the things that might possibly be a surprise in a reset and said it was not just Guilds that he encountered with those issues. He went to far as to say that anyone who could not deal with those issues regardless of brand, probably ought not to call themselves a luthier.

I am not endorsing or agreeing with all of those opinions but passing them on.

On the more general question, there are differences of opinion as to whether a reset is inevitable or not. There are anecdotes about 5 year old instruments that needed them and 50 year old instruments that have not needed one yet. Anecdotally I think the person who buys a Guild, pays for a reset and then sells it will probably lose money. But the buyer, if they sell, probably will not lose money because they can advertise that the reset has already been done.

Again anecdotally but folks who have a luthier who will reset Guilds would rather buy an instrument at a discount and have their luthier deal with it. Those who don't, spend the effort before the sale to make sure the instrument doesn't need a reset and walk away from those that do.
 

jmascis

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Again anecdotally but folks who have a luthier who will reset Guilds would rather buy an instrument at a discount and have their luthier deal with it. Those who don't, spend the effort before the sale to make sure the instrument doesn't need a reset and walk away from those that do.

Exactly. I purchased a new Guild because I didn't want to deal with resets on some of the CL listings I saw (some good deals). It's just not worth the headache to me. Unfortunately I like the sound and feel of Guilds. Bought and HD-28 and had to return it. It's just not the sound I like. Martin offers a 20 year warranty of neck resets, though. Guild, zero. I wrote to ask...
 

fronobulax

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Guild, zero. I wrote to ask...

That probably has more to do with the various changes in ownership over the years. Only the lawyers know when warranty liability was transferred to the new owner and when it wasn't and so warranty holders were left holding the bag. There were a couple reports of FMIC Guild honoring warranties from the decades before their ownership but it was always presented as a special case of doing the right thing for goodwill and not because they were legally obligated to honor the lifetime warranty to the original purchaser.

Interesting that Martin only offers 20 years. That suggests they think if it needs one after 20 years it is because of the inherent design and not a defect in materials or workmanship.
 

txbumper57

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that's great to know, thanks.

if those guys find this thread, i would be curious to hear what they charge for a reset.

Here is the link to their website, http://www.jacobscustomguitars.com/ Call them on Monday or email them and ask about prices for the work you need done. Also if you just search "Jacobs Custom Guitars" on Google they pop right up with the number and hours of operation. Have a good one!

TX
 

jmascis

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That probably has more to do with the various changes in ownership over the years. Only the lawyers know when warranty liability was transferred to the new owner and when it wasn't and so warranty holders were left holding the bag. There were a couple reports of FMIC Guild honoring warranties from the decades before their ownership but it was always presented as a special case of doing the right thing for goodwill and not because they were legally obligated to honor the lifetime warranty to the original purchaser.

Interesting that Martin only offers 20 years. That suggests they think if it needs one after 20 years it is because of the inherent design and not a defect in materials or workmanship.

What Guild told me in email is that they don't cover resets under warranty because the wood moves under tension (obviously we all know this and it's indisputable). But say that happens after a year or even five years? That's, imo, most likely due to them using poor wood, assuming the buyer had it cased and didn't use improper strings (too high a gauge, etc), and would be a manufacturing defect. They disagreed and it bothered me, tbh. But I still bought the M-20. But I wouldn't buy a very pricey model knowing that's the policy.

With Martin, my guess is that they figure after 20 years the reset is normal, even if you case it and use proper strings. I didn't write to ask them specifically; only spoke with a Martin dealer about it, and that's what they told me. But at least that gives the buyer some assurance.

Here is the link to their website, http://www.jacobscustomguitars.com/ Call them on Monday or email them and ask about prices for the work you need done. Also if you just search "Jacobs Custom Guitars" on Google they pop right up with the number and hours of operation. Have a good one!

TX

Awesome, thanks!
I don't need any work done right now, but knowing they do resets at a reasonable cost (hopefully) might at least allow me to look at some of these Guilds on CL.
 

Cougar

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I don't need any work done right now, but knowing they do resets at a reasonable cost (hopefully) might at least allow me to look at some of these Guilds on CL.

Yeah, I don't expect your M-20 will be needing a reset for some time. I don't go way deep in vintage, but I picked up a 15-year-old JF30-12 off a CL ad that's got no issues and plays like a dream. Of course, I was able to check it out before buying, but after a few minutes, there was never any doubt. Just so you know how to test the neck and the saddle, you should be good to go!
 

Bonneville88

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jmascis,

IME... seems like about half of the vintage Guilds I've purchased in the past year needed
bridges re-glued and /or neck resets, generally followed by a complete setup.

Doesn't matter if they came from CL, Reverb, or ebay.

There's a couple good shops around the St. Louis area,
neck resets on Guilds seem to run from around $225 to $350 around here, depending on who does it.
Bridge removal / prep / reglue $60 - $75. Complete setups $75 to $150.
Again, depends on the shop.

I'm a Westerly-only collector thus far, and as of now I assume that anything I purchase is
probably going to need some work done. I do my research and try to find
good deals, so I won't be too concerned about putting in some fix-er-up $$.

I will observe from experience... I don't think most CL sellers have a clue if dad's old
Guild they're getting rid of has a neck angle issue or not... and odds are good it might!
 
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jmascis

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Well said, bonneville, and you are lucky to have resets in your area that cheap. The luthiers doing them don't complain and do good jobs?
 

Neal

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I currently own four vintage Guild acoustics ('71, '71, '73 and '81), and have owned a bunch more. None have ever had a neck reset.

Granted, some are real close. I staved off a neck reset on the older three by installing a JDL Bridge Doctor ($30 and about a half hour of work). The Bridge Doctor, IMO, is the perfect solution for a bellied-up vintage Guild acoustic in the $400-$700 range (good guitars, but probably not worth the expense of a reset).

I also had the bridge pin slots ramped to improve the break angle over the saddle. That is another inexpensive solution for lower-priced vintage Guilds, to improve their tone with a low saddle.

The way I see it, there are a LOT of great old bargain D-25's and D-35's out there that could be made very playable via the methods above.
 
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Bonneville88

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Well said, bonneville, and you are lucky to have resets in your area that cheap. The luthiers doing them don't complain and do good jobs?

No complaints thus far... helps that there's some genuine vintage Guild enthusiasm on the service side though :smile-new:

Neal - can't believe how many D25s & 35s are out there - what I can't fathom is the ridiculous asking prices
for some of them as of late, especially the 25s - how the sellers are figuring their pricing info, gotta wonder.

Some good ones out there for very reasonable prices as well!

Didn't know about the bridge doctor, will have to check it out.
 
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bobouz

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Just keep looking, and you'll run across some vintage Guilds with neck angles that are just fine.

Of my three '70s Guilds, none is in need of a neck reset, and only one has a fairly low saddle (with plenty of bridge height if shaving is ever required). But here's something important to be aware of & it's a positive factor: On '70s Guilds, the saddle is placed very close to the pins. This means that you don't need much saddle height to achieve a good break angle on the strings. Essentially, a low saddle on a Guild from this era is not necessarily a deal breaker, so each instrument should be thoroughly assessed in-hand if at all possible.

Of my two '90s Guilds, the saddle to pins spacing is a bit wider, but both have excellent neck angles & tons of remaining saddle, and I've seen many more from this era that sport ideal neck angles - twenty five or so years after leaving the factory.
 
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dapmdave

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Here is the link to their website, http://www.jacobscustomguitars.com/ Call them on Monday or email them and ask about prices for the work you need done. Also if you just search "Jacobs Custom Guitars" on Google they pop right up with the number and hours of operation. Have a good one!

TX

We'll be happy to discuss your guitar and the cost of work needed, but please call on Tuesday. We're closed on Mondays. Or send an email to tom@jacobscustomguitars.

We do Guild neck resets often. Cost varies with the amount of additional work needed because usually by the time a neck reset is necessary there are other issues which should be addressed in order to maximize the effectiveness of the reset.
 
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