Buying old, vintage Guilds

jmascis

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What's interesting is the M-20 I bought (hasn't arrived yet so I can't examine it) from Guild has a M/T joint. I thought almost all Guilds had dovetails. At $1375 it's not a cheap guitar, so you'd think it would have the traditional dovetail. I wonder if this M/T will be easier to reset if/when it needs one (a nice perk if it is). And I also wonder if this M/T is bolted on. I've read many of the modern M/T joints are bolted. I might be talking out of my league with this stuff, though, because I'm not a luthier and just know the basics of the joints.
 

kostask

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This was discussed in other posts.

Yes, it is a bolted mortise and tenon joint. Should the time come where it is needed to be reset, it will be far easier to do.

While not universally accepted by all luthiers, there is the thought that the bolted on mortise and tennon neck joints, if properly made and carefully fitted, can sound better than glued dovetail joints. This is due to the energy transmission being wood to wood, vs. wood through glue to wood. This is more of a consideration when the glue in the neck joint is not hide glue, as the common wood glue used these days is aliphatic (eg. Titebond) which never really solidifies to a solid mass. Because it stays somewhat flexible, some of the string energy is absorbed when the string energy goes through it. With tight wood to wood contact, this doesn't happen. It is an open question as to whether this actually can be heard or not.
 

tommym

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......At $1375 it's not a cheap guitar, so you'd think it would have the traditional dovetail......

All of my Froggy Bottom guitars had / have bolt-on necks. I paid a little more than $1375 for the Froggys too. :-(

Tommy
 
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fronobulax

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I'm jumping threads, fronobulax - does this issue apply to 1999 Korean-made DeArmonds, or is it specific to USA Guilds (in other words, inherent in the design or related to variations in build practice)?

I think you got your answer :) My sweeping generalizations were about made in USA acoustic steel string guitars. Resets on electrics are rare enough that we don't have a lot of anecdotes. Similarly most people who talk about D'Armonds are talking about mods or how they are almost as good as the comparable Guild but at a much lower price. I suspect may people don't think they are worth repairing once they need major work.

It is a matter of debate whether a guitar in general, and acoustic steel string in particular, will eventually need a neck reset because of the features of the design or whether the need for a reset is caused by the way the instrument is treated. I have come around to splitting the difference - eventually every steel string acoustic will need a reset but there are use and environmental factors that will push "eventually" out to fifty or more years. What those factors are is a matter debate and anecdote :)
 

Neal

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Archtops are built more solidly than flattops, and designed to take really heavy strings.

I have four, all dating from the 1950's, and none are anywhere close to needing a reset.
 

adorshki

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What's interesting is the M-20 I bought (hasn't arrived yet so I can't examine it) from Guild has a M/T joint. I thought almost all Guilds had dovetails.
Traditionally all flattops did,and when it was discovered on the new D40 it caused some irritation here because they didn't really disclose that on introduction. The D40 Traditionaland D55 are advertised as having a dovetail joint, though, so it appears they're reserving that for higher-end builds now.
At $1375 it's not a cheap guitar, so you'd think it would have the traditional dovetail. I wonder if this M/T will be easier to reset if/when it needs one (a nice perk if it is). And I also wonder if this M/T is bolted on. I've read many of the modern M/T joints are bolted. I might be talking out of my league with this stuff, though, because I'm not a luthier and just know the basics of the joints.
Can't seem to be able to search right now but I believe it was determined they're bolted.
Several examples of high-end builders using bolted mortise & tenon were cited here, but one member, Txbumper57 claims he can hear a difference in tone.
I believe him due to his wide range of experience with guitars in general, and because I believe the neck and headstock mass affect tone and since the attachment point is a point of vibration transfer, it could affect tone.
I don't have any experience to say whether one is actually better, tone-wise. And at that, it's still probably a matter of personal preference.
My gut says that direct physical bonding via hideglue in a dovetail should transfer vibrations more efficiently, though.
I know at least part of the irritation over the discovery of the M&T joint is that Cordoba was not forthright about announcing that build detail from the start.
And I see Kostas and Tommy also mentioned the 2 sides of the ""argument", but yeah, a bolted m&t should be a lot easier to reset.
 
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Neal

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Boutique makers Huss & Dalton, Rockbridge, Santa Cruz, Bourgeois, and Froggy Bottom all use bolt-on necks.

It is not a mark of a lesser guitar by any means.

Play one of these builders' guitars and you will understand perfectly!
 

adorshki

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Archtops are built more solidly than flattops, and designed to take really heavy strings.

I have four, all dating from the 1950's, and none are anywhere close to needing a reset.
Not sure they're actually built "more solidly", as I thought they were built for optimum resonance/sustain for the acoustic role, which usually means lighter builds, but the arch of the top itself resists the "caving in" pressure for the same reasons it's impossible to crush an egg in one hand.
And why arched-top cases are more resistant to crushing force and were provided with high-end Guild flat-tops.
(If I'm way off base here, somebody please correct me for my own sake and everybody else's).
Search seems disabled at moment, but I think it was Gilded who mentioned archtops with single cutaways being prone to going out of centerline alignment (as opposed to "caving in") due to unequal stress at the sides of the neck block, "IIRC".
It was a probably a couple of years ago already.
I think it came up in a discussion about why strings seemed to be closer to the treble side of the fretboard and bridges that seemed to be a little off-center and it possibly being due to trying to compensate for that?
Anyway, only mentioned it because I think I can remember probably 3 or 4 anecdotes about archtops needing re-sets but maybe only one about a solidbody.
 
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jmascis

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I know at least part of the irritation over the discovery of the M&T joint is that Cordoba was not forthright about announcing that build detail from the start.

I can understand that.
I assumed it was dovetail because it's nothing near an entry level guitar, so I was shocked to see M/T. But, if it's easier to reset and not a huge difference in tone I'll stick with the order. I really love the M-20's sound because I'm into warm finger picking right now. Personally Cordoba isn't off to a good start. I don't know Guilds history like many here, and I'm new to Guild, but what I do know is that's a new owner and factory, and my M-20 had major QC issues as posted in the photos I shared. Then not sharing that they're bolting necks...it's just not a cool start.

I also didn't like that I couldn't find one (affordable, other than D-55) model on their site that uses an ebony fretboard. I know ebony is rare right now, but I'd take imperfect ebony with discolorations in the wood over rosewood. It would be a nice option.

It seems in general the trend in acoustic guitars is less specs for more money...I guess this is "hidden inflation" at work. At least with US guitars.
If you look at the Yahama FG800 series, it has a wood spruce top and dovetail joint, and you can get them for $160. Made in China. That can't last.
The economics of guitars is interesting right now.
 
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adorshki

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I really love the M-20's sound because I'm into warm finger picking right now.
See, there's that personal preference thing!
Personally Cordoba isn't off to a good start. I don't know Guilds history like many here, and I'm new to Guild, but what I do know is that's a new owner and factory, and my M-20 had major QC issues as posted in the photos I shared. Then not sharing that they're bolting necks...it's just not a cool start.
Yep you are definitely not alone.
Several folks have mentioned other issues about service that have "turned them off" , and as the incidents go on I'm struggling to keep an open mind myself.
I also didn't like that I couldn't find one (affordable, other than D-55) model on their site that uses an ebony fretboard. I know ebony is rare right now, but I'd take imperfect ebony with discolorations in the wood over rosewood. It would be a nice option.
I think I'm repeating myself, but to be fair, Guild did traditionally reserve ebony for its highest end models, even before scarcity issues.
I think at least part of it is that not only was it a bit more costly even back in the '90's but it's more difficult to work with as well, so labor cost goes up somewhat too. All those ebony necks typically get the block inlays and get bound as well, and even "railroad tracks", the inlay stripes next to edges of the fretboard:
guild-d55-2009-cons-head-front-1.jpg

It seems in general the trend in acoustic guitars is less specs for more money...I guess this is "hidden inflation" at work. At least with US guitars.
Yeah, personally I can't stomach Martin "stratabond" necks, and I understand they even offer composite-bodied guitars which I've read are expected to have a very short life span.
I think a lot of us are hoping that Cordoba will at least maintain most if not all of the traditions us geezers love and at least make the "good stuff" available for those who can come up with the scratch.
Made in China. That can't last.
The economics of guitars is interesting right now.
No it can't and yes it is.
I remember when I got my D25, I had learned the the Japanese were buying up most of the prime American wood, so one of my rationales was that I'd better get an American guitar (which was non-negotiable) while there was still decent wood in 'em.
When I got my D40 it was because I'd seen the MIC GAD series in the spring '04 price list and I figured I's better get an American made Guild while I still could!!
Fortunately time has rendered both those fears unfounded even though prices have of course gone up, I just hope it stays that way for another 20 years or more.
When New Hartford was struggling to get up to speed and Fender was trying to justify a border-line "boutique" pricing model,
it was often said that the biggest competition for new Guilds was used ones.
It's probably still true. They represent extremely good value for the price.
But there are some of us who really get off on being an original owner.
(See my sig, LOL!!)
 
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adorshki

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Forgive the intrusion, I missed the acoustic/electric context or would have refrained. Chalk it up to forum inexperience.
NO worries, we're extremely tolerant of all kinds of digressions around here, in fact we've got a term for it, "veering".
I think it traces it's origins back to member Coastie99's slogan: "Don't fear the veer!".
Besides humorous asides, ramifications of what initially seem like simple questions are often brought to light that way.
:friendly_wink:
 

Bill Ashton

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Boutique makers Huss & Dalton, Rockbridge, Santa Cruz, Bourgeois, and Froggy Bottom all use bolt-on necks.

It is not a mark of a lesser guitar by any means.

Play one of these builders' guitars and you will understand perfectly!

Neal, you forgot Collings...:blushed:
 

jmascis

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No it can't and yes it is.
I remember when I got my D25, I had learned the the Japanese were buying up most of the prime American wood, so one of my rationales was that I'd better get an American guitar (which was non-negotiable) while there was still decent wood in 'em.
When I got my D40 it was because I'd seen the MIC GAD series in the spring '04 price list and I figured I's better get an American made Guild while I still could!!
Fortunately time has rendered both those fears unfounded even though prices have of course gone up, I just hope it stays that way for another 20 years or more.
When New Hartford was struggling to get up to speed and Fender was trying to justify a border-line "boutique" pricing model,
it was often said that the biggest competition for new Guilds was used ones.
It's probably still true. They represent extremely good value for the price.
But there are some of us who really get off on being an original owner.
(See my sig, LOL!!)

What is also strange is we're told there's a scarcity of woods, yet on $160 Yahama you can now get a spruce top and a rosewood board and dovetail joint. Meanwhile, on many 1k+ US guitars you now get a Richlite board (not all of course, but many) and now bolt on necks. To me this brings into question the wood scarcity debate. It seems this is more about economics: inflation and labor. In the US there is high inflation and high living standards, so to combat that the guitar companies are using Richlite and M/T joints, etc. Then they tell us wood is scares. In China, labor is dirt cheap, and while inflation is high, it's mostly in bubble assets that don't hit the common man. So there, we see improvements to cheap guitars. The Yahama 700 series had laminate tops. The 800 series now has spruce top and scalloped bracing. All this says to me the big US companies want to sell us on this idea of scarcity and that "guitar players need to adapt to new materials" because it allows them to use these cheaper materials to maintain profits without raising costs too much. Is that conspiracy thinking? I don't know. They have Bob Taylor out there doing promos saying we all need to accept new materials, Martin doing the same, and meanwhile Yahama is actually giving customers more wood for less money.

My girlfriend has a composite Martin, btw, and it actually has a Richlite board. It plays well, I can't deny that. It's a bit boxy sounding but warm and the fretboard is nice. I didn't know they were expected to break down. I'll have to tell her that. I will tell you this: it smells awful. It's only a few weeks old, but I can smell the chemicals (I assume it's from pressing the wood/glues they used). I actually had to put it down and stop practicing last week because I was feeling ill from the scent. If that's what Martin and Bob Taylor expect guitar players to accept, I'll just go all Bob Dylan blasphemy and go pure electric.
 

Bonneville88

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Veering back to the subject... with this thread in mind, found another Westerly D25 with OHSC on CL
and did a deal, guitar is on the way. Cosmetic condition looked good in the photos.

Seller advised that it hadn't been played much and the action was high,
that it may need a neck reset... and where he was located on the left coast, neck
resets can be $$$

Will update once guitar is in hand... we'll see what be :friendly_wink:
 

kostask

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I don't know if Roy Noble was first or not, but Mark Gurian used a mortise and tenon neck joint int the 1970s. Is was not a bolted attachment, but used a pair of through holes on the sides of both the neck and neck block that were offset from one another. The attachment devices were a pair of semi-circular wedges. Neck was put on, the holes lines up, and the wedges were driven in. To reset the neck, pull the wedges out, add shims as necessary, put the neck into the neck block and drive the wedges back in. Never seen that used by anybody else since.
 

MancJonny

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That 2009 D55 headstock at #71 above is stunning.

I know that the Martin Company (and, now, Gibson) is forever banging on about the beauty and craftsmanship of the inlay work on their guitars - but for sheer understated elegance the design depicted above takes some beating!
 

fronobulax

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What is also strange is we're told there's a scarcity of woods, yet on $160 Yahama you can now get a spruce top and a rosewood board and dovetail joint. Meanwhile, on many 1k+ US guitars you now get a Richlite board (not all of course, but many) and now bolt on necks. To me this brings into question the wood scarcity debate. It seems this is more about economics: inflation and labor. In the US there is high inflation and high living standards, so to combat that the guitar companies are using Richlite and M/T joints, etc. Then they tell us wood is scares. In China, labor is dirt cheap, and while inflation is high, it's mostly in bubble assets that don't hit the common man. So there, we see improvements to cheap guitars. The Yahama 700 series had laminate tops. The 800 series now has spruce top and scalloped bracing. All this says to me the big US companies want to sell us on this idea of scarcity and that "guitar players need to adapt to new materials" because it allows them to use these cheaper materials to maintain profits without raising costs too much. Is that conspiracy thinking? I don't know. They have Bob Taylor out there doing promos saying we all need to accept new materials, Martin doing the same, and meanwhile Yahama is actually giving customers more wood for less money.

My girlfriend has a composite Martin, btw, and it actually has a Richlite board. It plays well, I can't deny that. It's a bit boxy sounding but warm and the fretboard is nice. I didn't know they were expected to break down. I'll have to tell her that. I will tell you this: it smells awful. It's only a few weeks old, but I can smell the chemicals (I assume it's from pressing the wood/glues they used). I actually had to put it down and stop practicing last week because I was feeling ill from the scent. If that's what Martin and Bob Taylor expect guitar players to accept, I'll just go all Bob Dylan blasphemy and go pure electric.

English is a funny language. If I say something is "scarce" I just mean that I can't get as much as I want or need. But I am not trying to say whether the quantity I need does not exist, or that I cannot afford the quantity I need, or that the supply chain cannot deliver what I need. When I listen to Bob Taylor's comments about wood and hear what the folks in New Hartford said, the message is I take away is not that wood is scarce but that the supply of the quality of wood desired is dwindling and thus rising in price. In some cases the supply is dwindling because the "correct" trees were not planted 20 years ago and anything planted today won't be good enough for guitars for 30 years. In some cases the wood is there but using it would price the resulting instrument to non-competitive levels.

I have not looked at Yamaha guitars - I forget they make anything besides motorcycles - but it would not surprise me if the wood was lower in quality than what would be used in an over $1000 MSRP Made In USA guitar. When they talked about wood in New Hartford they mentioned about how grading standards were not universal and every batch of AAA grade wood that came in was still inspected by Guild and not everything in the batch was accepted. Since the rejected by Guild wood was almost certainly sold to someone else there were jokes about buying guitars made from wood rejected by Guild and who would want to do that? Somebody's using the AA and A grades but not for high end instruments.

So while I am well aware of the tendency of companies and corporations to find a way to slant anything so that it sounds like they are doing something good or necessary when the only reason is profit, in this case I am inclined to accept the general idea that if "we" don't address the wood supply now, in 50 years there won't be enough to make guitars.

It is true that labor costs are cheaper in China, but about 5 years ago one of the people at Guild who was responsible for overseeing the MIC production noted that labor costs in China were rising and it was quite possible that it would be economically feasible to bring production back to the US. I think we need another five years before we know his prediction was wrong.
 
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