NS Guild manufacturing defects?

marcellis

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I bought an NS SF III around 18 months - 2 years ago. I'm mainly an acoustic player. I did not know much about electrics. I noticed fret noise right away. Plugged in it wasn't amplified, but it bothered me. Fret buzzing is a real problem on acoustics - not so much apparently on electrics. Other players liked how the SF III played and did not mind the fret noise. Sounded super plugged in.

Wanting to eliminate fret noise - I naturally tried to elevate the Tune-o-Matic bridge. Then I noticed the ToM poles were already nearly maxed out at the highest position. I couldn't raise it high enough to get rid of the stupid fret noise that only seemed to bother me.

Soooo, I had another idea, get a new wooden bridge. I'd replace the stock Guild Rosewood bridge w/a taller bridge. I had a trip to Vietnam in the cards anyway. I had Mr. Binh fabricate a couple for me.

So at last, the problem of fret noise should go away, right? I took the new bridge to a local guitar repair and asked him to replace the stock bridge w/one of the taller bridges.

He couldn't do it. The frets buzzed no matter what wooden bridge was used. He dug deeper. Then he emailed me this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PHB_Mb315s&feature=em-share_video_user

The top was sinking. Inside, the glue work was bad and separating. Taller, heavier bridges made it sink more.

Remember, from the very first day, I was annoyed by the stupid fret noise. I was really aggravated
the ToM poles were already nearly maxxed out in height.

Fortunately, the vendor has agreed to ship me a new one free. But I suspect this is not a one-and-done defect. I think it's a manufacturer's problem.

Has anyone else received an NS Guild with ToM poles maxxed out? Anyone else have a problem w/fret noise that could not be eliminated? Take a careful look.
 

GAD

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There are a few of us that think the NS guitars are not quite up to snuff in the QC department. What you describe has the potential to be a more serious issue, though.
 

marcellis

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He sent me some photos of the bracing coming unglued. Can't upload 'em.
Really bad workmanship. The guitar should have never left the factory.

i I don't think this is a one-off.
 

DThomasC

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I don't think this is a one-off.

Have you heard of other QC issues with the NS instruments? In the absence of personal experience, that's all I have to go on: what I hear, or don't hear. So far I've heard almost entirely good reports. Yours is the first that I can remember of QC problems.

I have a NS Aristocrat M-75. I doubt that it's the equal of the Hoboken version that its a copy of, especially in terms of materials. But, it seems to be very well constructed. I've experienced no issues with workmanship or QC. The Grover Sta-Tite tuners were sticky when I got it (I have heard rumors of a short run of Sta-Tites like this.) I replaced the plastic thrust washer with a combination of a wavy washer and a brass shim washer. Now the tuners work as well as any I've owned.

Anyway, I'm sorry that you got a bad instrument. I feel your frustration.
 

fronobulax

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We have definitely had more discussion about Newark Street QC than New Hartford. I seem to recall a discussion a few months back where people were surprised an instrument had been allowed out of the factory and that the selling dealer failed to inspect it or find the problem. However since my NS bass is rock solid in the QC sense I tend not to remember specifics about problems I did not have. I also have no sense of how common problems. Human nature means people will post about problems but not "works as expected". So does one report mean there are 9 happy and silent owners or 999,999 silent and happy owners? There were some NS basses with cosmetic issues and there were examples of more than one, but otherwise I don't recall teh same problem being reported independently. There is evidence that Cordoba is aware of hot issues raised at LTG although there has not been direct communication that I am aware of. Nevertheless someone might be reading and in a position to relate this to reports from elsewhere and do something.

Regardless new guitars are not supposed to give people problems. If we want to deal with problems we buy vintage :)
 

kakerlak

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I feel like I remember somebody else around here with a guitar that's bridge was sitting so tall they needed to swap out the adjustment studs for taller ones. I don't remember who or what guitar, but this makes me wonder...
 

marcellis

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I feel like I remember somebody else around here with a guitar that's bridge was sitting so tall they needed to swap out the adjustment studs for taller ones. I don't remember who or what guitar, but this makes me wonder...

Yup. I think that was me. I think this guitar left the factory w/ the ToM almost maxxed out.
More from my repair guy:

"After noticing the center of the guitar's top sunken in between the 'F'Holes and the fact that after tuning the starfire III it kept going flat, I took some video for a closer look only to find that the 2 Main top support braces were not completely glued to the most important part of the guitar. While adding a tiny bit of pressure to the top piece it was obvious that the 2 main support braces would only come unglued more & more until this guitar was completely destroyed or rendered useless."
 

JohnW63

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Can the guy properly glue the braces, or is that really out of the question for a hollow body, without taking the top off ?
 

marcellis

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Inspector #11

If your NS instrument has an inspector #11 card in the case pocket, look your instrument over very carefully.

Can the guy properly glue the braces, or is that really out of the question for a hollow body, without taking the top off ?

Dunno. We both agree it's best to return the damned thing. I don't want to accept another Korean Guild. Binnair. Dunnat.

I will ask the vendor to switch brands. I'm hoping it will replace this thing. It is a total rip-off AFAIC. Throw it in the fireplace.
 

grayghost53

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unfortunately this scenario sounds familiar. back in the mid to late 1980's the venerable US electronic firm "Zenith" had gone under. the nice folks at Gold Star came in, bought the zenith name. slapped it on (at the time) low-low end electronics and started selling them. in the mid 1990's Nikon was in position to take a large share in the firearms scope market. but, they did not have the capability to produce an entry level scope. they went to a Philippine producer and had all the scopes in that price range produced from raw materials to finished product. and yes, it had "Nikon" silk screened on the side. in both cases there were consumers, lured by the respective Brand- and the quality, materials, and workmanship once associated with that Brand. it is caveat emptor to the 10th. power. and again this particular case has added anguish as it is an association and reflection on the instrument company we all here dearly love- Guild. it really hurts when you see low quality, poorly QC'd instruments when they have my Girlfriend's NAME on their headstock. GUILD. I have named my III "Charlene", but that's a whole nuther story. when someone is very unhappy with a guitar that may have been modelled after an original Guild, and it will be labeled as a Guild, but's let's be honest that's where the comparison ends. to produce a true re-issue Star Fire II, III, IV etc. and do it well at the most acceptable cost/msrp it might be done in the US, but after looking at some of the Godin arch tops, it could be done in Canada and produce a fine quality guitar at an affordable price- VS continuing to "cheap it out" with suppliers that at best produce a mediocre instrument, at worst- as in this case- instruments purchased by first time Guild customers who have heard the name, but maybe not appreciate the history and the veneration players have for this brand. and when the guitar is shown to be what it was all along, a poor copy of a great guitar with "our" brand's name prominently displayed on the headstock, and the label. that is a sad story friends.
 

DThomasC

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Too bad this forum software doesn't do anonymous polls. I'd like to see a poll of LTG'ers that have owned NS instruments and their level of satisfaction. I agree with frono that anecdotal reports might be less useful than we would like. We need everyone to chime in.

And, I agree that new instruments that are defective out of the box - or fail early - should go back to the manufacturer. If they don't know about issues then they can't fix them. Having defecting instruments in their hands has to help motivate.
 

marcellis

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Too bad this forum software doesn't do anonymous polls. I'd like to see a poll of LTG'ers that have owned NS instruments and their level of satisfaction. I agree with frono that anecdotal reports might be less useful than we would like. We need everyone to chime in.

And, I agree that new instruments that are defective out of the box - or fail early - should go back to the manufacturer. If they don't know about issues then they can't fix them. Having defecting instruments in their hands has to help motivate.

yeah. I can't believe this is a one-time defect. This guitar left the factory w/the ToM poles at 90-95% of their maximum height. Why? Not because the Rosewood bridge wasn't high enough, as I suspected. The darned braces were coming unglued. The top was sinking. No wonder I could not get rid of the darned fret noise.

FWIW: Inspector #11.

unfortunately this scenario sounds familiar. back in the mid to late 1980's the venerable US electronic firm "Zenith" had gone under. the nice folks at Gold Star came in, bought the zenith name. slapped it on (at the time) low-low end electronics and started selling them. in the mid 1990's Nikon was in position to take a large share in the firearms scope market. but, they did not have the capability to produce an entry level scope. they went to a Philippine producer and had all the scopes in that price range produced from raw materials to finished product. and yes, it had "Nikon" silk screened on the side. in both cases there were consumers, lured by the respective Brand- and the quality, materials, and workmanship once associated with that Brand. it is caveat emptor to the 10th. power. and again this particular case has added anguish as it is an association and reflection on the instrument company we all here dearly love- Guild. it really hurts when you see low quality, poorly QC'd instruments when they have my Girlfriend's NAME on their headstock. GUILD. I have named my III "Charlene", but that's a whole nuther story. when someone is very unhappy with a guitar that may have been modelled after an original Guild, and it will be labeled as a Guild, but's let's be honest that's where the comparison ends. to produce a true re-issue Star Fire II, III, IV etc. and do it well at the most acceptable cost/msrp it might be done in the US, but after looking at some of the Godin arch tops, it could be done in Canada and produce a fine quality guitar at an affordable price- VS continuing to "cheap it out" with suppliers that at best produce a mediocre instrument, at worst- as in this case- instruments purchased by first time Guild customers who have heard the name, but maybe not appreciate the history and the veneration players have for this brand. and when the guitar is shown to be what it was all along, a poor copy of a great guitar with "our" brand's name prominently displayed on the headstock, and the label. that is a sad story friends.

in the army we used to say, "They can steal your radio and leave the music,". I should have seen it coming.
 

adorshki

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unfortunately this scenario sounds familiar. back in the mid to late 1980's the venerable US electronic firm "Zenith" had gone under.
the nice folks at Gold Star came in, bought the zenith name. slapped it on (at the time) low-low end electronics and started selling them.
While the premise is valid, the Zenith example isn't.
Zenith didn't actually "go under" until much later, and the mechanics of the transition weren't as simple as an offshore outfit "buying the brand" to use on inferior products.
I know: I was there when they sold off the "Zenith Data Systems" division to a French outfit in '89, then LG (formerly Gold Star) bought the controlling interest in Zenith Electronics Corporation in '95.
Gold Star was actually very good quality stuff, and there was no possible way Zenith could have survived making their consumer products in the US in any case.
They eventually wound up selling the last core part of their business to Motorola***.

From "the usual source" (Wikipedia):
"In 1979, Zenith entered the computer market with the purchase of Heath Company from Schlumberger for $64.5 million, and formed Zenith Data Systems (ZDS).[15] The company changed its name to Zenith Electronics Corporation in 1984, to reflect its interests in computers and CATV, and since it had left the radio business two years earlier.

By the late 1980s ZDS's profits sustained Zenith while its television business had lost money for years. To raise money for HDTV research efforts and reduce debt, Zenith sold ZDS to Groupe Bull in October 1989 for $635 million.[16]
By 1990, Zenith was in trouble and looking more attractive to a hostile takeover. To avoid this, Zenith sold 5% of itself to the Korean company LG Electronics as part of a technology-sharing agreement. With their analog line aging (the last major update to the line had been the System³ chassis in 1978[citation needed]), and the adoption of HDTV in the United States decades away, Zenith's prospects were not good. In 1995 LG increased its stake to 55 percent, enough to assume controlling interest. Zenith filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy in 1999, and in exchange for its debts, LG bought the remaining 45 percent of the company. During this era, some of Zenith's products were being rebadged as OEM under the Admiral name. Their profitable Network Systems division—that produced set-top boxes for cable and satellite TV—was sold to Motorola in the summer of 2000 and became part of Motorola BCS (Broadband Communications Sector).[17]

Presently, LG produces the Zenith DTT-900[18] and Zenith DTT-901[19] ATSC digital television converter box. LG also offers some Zenith branded plasma, LCD, and direct view televisions through selected retail outlets."

I also respectfully submit that with Newark Street and GAD instruments, this isn't a case of an offshore maker acquiring a US brand and putting the name on inferior product, this is a case of a US maker contracting with an offshore maker to produce low-cost models bearing the brand name.
There's been some pretty compelling arguments presented here in the past, that without these low-cost alternatives Guild itself may not have survived at all, and we wouldn't have any domestic built option.
In fact I myself thought I saw that writing on the wall back in '04.
When I first saw the GAD line listed ion the spring '04 Guild price list I was positive Fender cynically intended to make Guild just another import wearing a venerable old American badge, similar to your original premise.
After all this time, I'm just glad we've still got a domestic built option, and if it comes at the expense of dealing with the "issues" of off-shore built models, I'm ok with it.
I suspect the poll will show that QC problems are in line with if not better than accepted QC percentages for the industry.

***When I figured it out, I always admired Motorola's business model in the '70's through the late '00's:
Develop the technology, then license other people to build it and use that income stream to fund new R&D.
They didn't "lose it" until they continued trying to be an actual maker in the cell phone market, and wound up having to deal with the same old bugaboo again: Production cost overhead.
 

Guildadelphia

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I can only judge by my own NS X175B and a couple of NS Aristocrats I played in shops. All are well built, well finished instruments that only needed some basic set-up work. That being said, it is unfortunate that some "dogs" have been allowed to leave the factory with the problem compounded by dealers who failed to check out these guitars prior to shipping them to customers. I have to admit that unfortunately I have experienced way too many USA made Gibsons with serious QC issues. In fact, some of the better built Gibsons would be considered "B" stock because of minor cosmetic flaws by other companies.
 

marcellis

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Verified with vendor -- Inspector #11 was at the Korean factory. This guitar left the factory w/ToM poles at 90-95% of maximum extension. No way to eliminate fret buzz with a sinking top. Perhaps the inspector thought the guitar was good enough to ship to American consumers. Or perhaps the entire inspection process was under pressure to approve and ship.

Either way, I want no part of any more Korean-made Guilds.
 

Default

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The goldtop M-75 I have, had two issues. One was a rattle in the body. It turned out to be a chip if wood that broke off when the pickup was screwed into the body. The other was a non-functional pickup. That turned out to be a grounding issue on the pickup itself, due to a cold solder joint. Heated the joint and added some leaded solder and all is good in the world. The guitar made it through QC though.
 
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davismanLV

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Marc this seems to be a problem with this one guitar for you. If the vendor is willing to replace it, then do. If at that time you find ANOTHER defective instrument, THEN you can jump to the "this is not a one-off problem" type of thinking. But if it's only happened once, to you, then it's just a (single) defective instrument which they are willing to replace. I don't get the projecting onto the entire brand based on this one experience. They've offered to make it right, so allow them to do so. If that doesn't work, THEN you can boycott the whole Korean built brand of guitars.

I'm not saying that this isn't a serious issue, it is. But if they're trying to fix it, allow that to happen and see what comes your way. Why would you believe this is not an isolated problem? They make a LOT of guitars, you know? It's bad QC, but..... it happens.
 

marcellis

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Marc this seems to be a problem with this one guitar for you. If the vendor is willing to replace it, then do. If at that time you find ANOTHER defective instrument, THEN you can jump to the "this is not a one-off problem" type of thinking. But if it's only happened once, to you, then it's just a (single) defective instrument which they are willing to replace. I don't get the projecting onto the entire brand based on this one experience. They've offered to make it right, so allow them to do so. If that doesn't work, THEN you can boycott the whole Korean built brand of guitars.

I'm not saying that this isn't a serious issue, it is. But if they're trying to fix it, allow that to happen and see what comes your way. Why would you believe this is not an isolated problem? They make a LOT of guitars, you know? It's bad QC, but..... it happens.

Valid point, but life's too short for hassles like this AFAIC. The guitar was inspected by #11 and found fit to ship to American consumers. At least 2 symptoms of serious problems were both visible and audible. ToM pole height and massive fret buzz. The sinking top might slip by someone. But a QC inspector would have to be blindfolded, w/ears plugged and wearing mittens not to notice those 2 symptoms.

So I'm assuming the best, QC inspector #11 actually performed an inspection prior to shipping. I'm assuming the little card was not just tossed in the case pocket to fool US consumers into thinking there are real QC inspectors at the Korean factory.
 
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