Bridge Pins

jedzep

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The h(ear)t wants what the h(ear)t wants. No on ever changes pins, then puts same used strings back on to listen for a difference, so we always get fresh string tone, making a dead flat comparison questionable, I guess. Pins ideally should hold the strings in place against the plate and nothing more, really, but you're obviously not alone in perceiving a change. I actually have a Martin that loose pins fall out of when I flip it over, and the strings stay in place, and can be played like that without any noticeable change in tone (I'll have to fix that this afternoon). So pin/no pin, in this case affects nothing.

I wonder if there's a zillion pin/tone comparisons out there somewhere. Maybe I'll check later...if I survive mowing the lawn.
 
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merlin6666

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Oh old thread how nice. I didn't see mention of the impact of pin method which may be more substantial than material or weight. By method I mean that the early pinned bridges used natural materials like ebony, box wood, or bone that were shaped on a lathe, and slots were cut into the bridge holes to guide and hold the strings. Then after the war this shifted to a cheaper production where plastic pins were made in molds that included a slot to hold the string and the slot in the bridge hole was omitted, and string end got wedged between pin and bridge plate instead of seated in the slot. I think that most higher end guitars still follow the early pin method, likely because this has tonal advantages.
 

jedzep

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Yes, I agree. The unslotted setup holds the string ball fully onto the plate, giving maximum connection for maximum vibration transfer. Nothing more unsettling than dropping the inspection mirror in and seeing the ball ends partially buried into the plate, using the pin slot as a train track to your repair shop. It's fairly easy to slot your own, but you have to spring for a good saw, probably from StewMac or LMI. 60 bucks!!
 

banjomike

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First time I've heard that too, thanks Bernie.
It occurs to me it may not be the weight so much as the density of the material and how it absorbs vibration (or not)
I'm thinking they're like little nails and a lead nail might be a better "damper" than a steel one for example. (Ray's point)
ON reflection the weight thing makes sense too (although how much difference in mass could there really be?) and maybe the density is just another "variable" in the whole "equation".
Swapping 'em out on my Guilds just to see what happens has been one of those "bucket list" things I always forget about.
I agree.
I think using bridge pins that match the wood of the bridge can make a small improvement in a guitar's response. When the wood pins are similar, they are going to vibrate like the rest of the bridge vibrates, in the same spectrum.
It's not a matter of weight- it's a matter of similar mass.

After playing a D-28 side by side with a D-21 of the same age, I'm also convinced that a rosewood bridge w/ rosewood pins makes for a livlier and slightly more responsive guitar than one equipped with ebony parts. That was the only difference in the two guitar's bodies.
The D-21 was livelier, but some of it's sustain was sacrificed. Ebony is slower to respond, but it sustains longer and has a more equal vibrational range. Rosewood tends to drop out some lower-mid frequencies while boosting the higher-mids.
Both are very close in stiffness, but ebony is heavier.

Bone pins are both very stiff and very light weight when made of properly cured horse shin bone. I really like those pins a lot, and they can replace either type of wood pins very well. My D-60 has a set of them, but trying to find the horse bone is next to impossible these days, as all those horse by-products have been banned for use. (It was a law that was written to save the mustang slaughter. Mustangs were once killed and were sold for dog food and bone meal.)

I'ver tried fossilized ivory, but I suspect it's harder than bone because it's mineralized. And hella expensive. I haven't ever tried hard maple either, mostly because I've never owned an all-maple flat top. I think hard sugar maple would make a good bridge, but would probably have to be thicker in the center than the others.

I plan on spending a lot of time comparing my D-21 to the D-60 Guild I just got. Kim Walker shaved down the face of the D-60 bridge below the saddle slot considerably. The center of the bridge is still full thickness at the slot and pin holes, but just below the pin holes, about 1/3 of the bridge was shaved away. This lightens the bridge while retaining its full stiffness where it counts as proper support.
Walker knows his stuff for sure, but I was surprised the neck doesn't have a center strip of rosewood in the mahogany.

For sure, the D-60 is more responsive than a modern D-28. I haven't played it very much yet, but the guitar is extremely sensitive to the string vibrations. Playing it softly with a flatpick, the tone is very sweet, but when I put a bit of force into the pick it will roar instantly, and it never reaches compression when I strum it hard. Immense dynamic range.
That's much more about the top though, not just the bridge. The bridge does help, but the top is a really good piece of AAA prime spruce, cut straight on the quarter. It's not Adi, for sure- it's either European Alpine or Sitka, but I can't determine which it is.

My 1964 D-21 has an Adirondack top, and all Braz rosewood; body, bridge and fingerboard. It's the best sounding Martin dreadnought I've ever owned, but I don't like the neck shape; it's rather uncomfortable, and has a strange twist in the shape.

The Guild, though, is very comfortable in my left hand. I'm going to play it for a while to wake it up and get it back to doing business before I start comparing them side by side. I really like the Guild's focus a lot. I think it hadn't been played for a long time before it was put up for sale, and it still is a little sleepy.
 
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adorshki

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I actually have a Martin that loose pins fall out of when I flip it over, and the strings stay in place, and can be played like that without any noticeable change in tone (I'll have to fix that this afternoon). So pin/no pin, in this case affects nothing.
Couple-a winds of ducktape should tighten 'em right up.
I wonder if there's a zillion pin/tone comparisons out there somewhere. Maybe I'll check later...if I survive mowing the lawn.
Great idea. A companion for the "Last String Thread". I'll get right on it.
 

adorshki

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Ebony is slower to respond, but it sustains longer and has a more equal vibrational range.
Interesting. My F65ce has ebony bridge and 'board, and great sustain, especially for a shallow-body.
For sure, the D-60 is more responsive than a modern D-28. I haven't played it very much yet, but the guitar is extremely sensitive to the string vibrations. Playing it softly with a flatpick, the tone is very sweet, but when I put a bit of force into the pick it will roar instantly, and it never reaches compression when I strum it hard. Immense dynamic range.
That's much more about the top though, not just the bridge. The bridge does help, but the top is a really good piece of AAA prime spruce, cut straight on the quarter. It's not Adi, for sure- it's either European Alpine or Sitka, but I can't determine which it is.
Your D60's an '88, right? There's a reference to Englemann on a same-year GF60 here:

https://reverb.com/item/59517250-guild-gf60-engelmann-maple-1988

They also used it on the 50th Anni. D55's. Think I might have seen a ref to European on a Nashville Custom Shop or AA (ah, think it was one of the Guild Benedettos on '01 price list or a later (Corona) catalog)

Bob B himself paid homage to the man responsible for all those great tops, btw, Willie Fritscher (forgive me if I showed this one before):
Guild-1999-Jul-Gallery-Catalog-pg48_1600.jpeg
 

banjomike

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Englemann! I haven't seen a guitar made with it for a while, but that's sure what mine has on the top!
Great catch, Al!
 
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