Cleating cracks

AcornHouse

Venerated Member
Joined
May 22, 2011
Messages
10,212
Reaction score
7,206
Location
Bidwell, OH
Guild Total
21
As the wood loses, and gains, humidity, it will alternately open and close. So, no matter how well it's glued shut, it will fight hard to open up. Cleating provides a little more glue surface area to help fight this.
 

adorshki

Reverential Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2009
Messages
34,176
Reaction score
6,789
Location
Sillycon Valley CA
Guilders,

If you don't cleat a top or back crack in non-laminated wood, will it just get worse?
Definitely Maybe.


I've seen reports of stable cracks, even uncleated.
Suspect humidity has a lot to do with it.
Dryness is supposed to aggravate cracking and even be a big cause, proper humidity is reported to keep 'em stable.
PS What about cracking cleats?
Sell the guitar.
Buy a horse.
Shoot the horse.
 

Antney

Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2017
Messages
510
Reaction score
176
I would guess the answer is surely yes. I think the grain of the cleat would be perpendicular to the grain in the crack, so that wouldn't be an issue. I think....
 

adorshki

Reverential Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2009
Messages
34,176
Reaction score
6,789
Location
Sillycon Valley CA
I would guess the answer is surely yes. I think the grain of the cleat would be perpendicular to the grain in the crack, so that wouldn't be an issue. I think....

A classic case of cracked cleats creating acoustic chaos..almost as bad as the Copper clappers caper.

 
Last edited:

txbumper57

Enlightened Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2014
Messages
7,577
Reaction score
58
Location
Texas
I have heard on several occasions of a Cracked not needing a Cleat and only taking glue to seal it. Most of these examples have been caught very early on when the crack starts to form and are located in non load bearing areas of the guitar. Just from my experience of course, Others may vary.

TX
 

wileypickett

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2009
Messages
4,964
Reaction score
4,489
Location
Cambridge, MA
As Dan Erlewine says, cracks don't go away by themselves.

R.E.: cracks to the top: in addition to being affected by humidity changes, the top also moves when you play the guitar. Cracks are more likely than not to get worse over time, and a cracked top may affect the guitar's ability to vibrate correctly and project. Plus if a crack causes an underlying brace to come loose, you may get some weird vibrations when you hit certain notes.

Cracks in the backs and sides may not have as much affect on the sound but, depending on where they are and how severe they are, they may affect the stability and integral strength of the guitar.

Unless it's a beater guitar that you don't really care about, I don't understand why anyone wouldn't get a cracked guitar repaired. As TX notes, the sooner you get 'em fixed, the less likely they are to get worse.
 

chazmo

Super Moderator
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Messages
25,443
Reaction score
7,105
Location
Central Massachusetts
Darryl, sorry to hear about your cracked axes. I went through that years ago, before I had learned what I needed to know about care/feeding of solid wood guitars.

Two pieces of advice: 1. Do the "3 dampits in the soundhole" treatment with high humidity for a few days and get the guitar and uke back into proper shape before you have your luthier do the work. This should be a proper starting point for him/her. 2. Make sure wherever you keep your collection gets proper humidity going forward, Darryl.

Maybe you'll forgive yourself for the damage you caused this time -- I know I never could when I cracked two of my heirloom guitars -- but now you know...

If you haven't watched the Bob Taylor videos on humidity, do so. :)
 

Neal

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 11, 2013
Messages
4,856
Reaction score
1,627
Location
Charlottesville, VA
As Dan Erlewine says, cracks don't go away by themselves.

R.E.: cracks to the top: in addition to being affected by humidity changes, the top also moves when you play the guitar. Cracks are more likely than not to get worse over time, and a cracked top may affect the guitar's ability to vibrate correctly and project. Plus if a crack causes an underlying brace to come loose, you may get some weird vibrations when you hit certain notes.

Cracks in the backs and sides may not have as much affect on the sound but, depending on where they are and how severe they are, they may affect the stability and integral strength of the guitar.

Unless it's a beater guitar that you don't really care about, I don't understand why anyone wouldn't get a cracked guitar repaired. As TX notes, the sooner you get 'em fixed, the less likely they are to get worse.

What he said...

However, I have a massively abused F-20 with probably 15 glued (but uncleated) cracks in the top, and it manages to produce huge amounts of resonance and sustain for such a little, beat-up guy.

But it was purchased for $300, so I guess the word "beater" applies. I did treat it to a new set of tuners after one of the keys broke off in my hand...
 

Darryl Hattenhauer

Venerated Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2006
Messages
11,083
Reaction score
317
Location
Phoenix, AZ, USA
Thank you, fellers.

I just now set the guitar room humidifier on high. (I don't have a case humidifier. What are the best ones?)

On one of the Taylor vids, he shows how he put a guitar in a machine that encloses one guitar at a time and humidifies it. It took days for his machine to humidify that guitar he was using. So I imagine it will take weeks to get my roomful of axes humidified.

Humidifying that guitar in the Taylor vid closed a seam crack. I can see why waiting for humidity to reduce a crack is the thing to do before you have it cleated.

hf
 

chazmo

Super Moderator
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Messages
25,443
Reaction score
7,105
Location
Central Massachusetts
Right on, Darryl. Take time and get the RH level right and (hopefully) somewhat consistent. Here in NE, I have a relatively consistent, humidified 45% - 50% RH in winter, but honestly in summer I get between 50% and 75% dpending on the weather. Other than a little belly, I've never had a problem with too much humidity. Where you are, the problem will be constant aridness.

in case humidifiers are essentially all good, but you don't need them if your room is properly humidified, Darryl. Get a hygrometer and, say, put it on top of your cases so you can see, ballpark, where you are. Your guitars cracked because (likely) you were well below the suggested 50%RH for an extended period of time.

But, anyway, dampits are great if you can't get the room level high enough. You'll probably find them dried out every week, just soak 'em in water and pinch/squeeze them so they're moist, not wet, when you put 'em in a soundhole or case. That said, a sponge in a perforated soap box in your case works equally well. Again, damp, not wet.

Best wishes.
 

geoguy

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2009
Messages
3,519
Reaction score
1,640
Location
metrowest MA
Frugal yankees are also known to take a simple kitchen sponge, wet it, squeeze out all excess water so that it is merely damp, & slip it into a small zip-lock baggie.

Then put the baggie, unsealed, into the guitar case. It can be positioned wherever practical (maybe near the neck heel, maybe pinched between two strings in the soundhole if you wish to get more moisture into the guitar body).
 

adorshki

Reverential Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2009
Messages
34,176
Reaction score
6,789
Location
Sillycon Valley CA
Thank you, fellers.


On one of the Taylor vids, he shows how he put a guitar in a machine that encloses one guitar at a time and humidifies it. It took days for his machine to humidify that guitar he was using. So I imagine it will take weeks to get my roomful of axes humidified.
Depending on how dry they are already, "yes".

Humidifying that guitar in the Taylor vid closed a seam crack. I can see why waiting for humidity to reduce a crack is the thing to do before you have it cleated.
hf

And any luthier worth his salt would be doing that himself before starting structural repairs of any kind. It's one of the basics.
So even if you do it, it wouldn't surprise me if "your guy" did it some more just to be assured it's "where it's supposed to be" since he's gonna be the one who had it last and is guaranteeing the work.
 
Top