My GUILD Story -- Is it time for a new Guild?

fronobulax · Oct 9, 2017

We should develop a "sentiment meter" so people can gauge just how much their guitars are really worth to them. There are a lot of folks who expect their Guild(s) won't change hands until the executor of their estate passes them on to their heirs. There are folks who make their living with the instrument and their Guild is just a tool - a very fine tool, perhaps but there will be no looking back if it gets replaced by a better tool.

The advice that splits the difference is get a repair estimate and then ponder so you seem to be following that.

Do not obsess about how to humidify. Just do it. There is only one wrong way to humidify a guitar and that is to not do it. Once you are comfortable with that, anything that actually allows water to drip on the wood is a candidate for improvement but even that damage is likely easier to repair than humidity cracks. There are many threads about how we at LTG humidify but most people put something in the sound-hole and keep the instrument in its case. The cheap "something" is a sponge in a plastic soap dish with holes punched in it. The other somethings tend to be commercial products which tend to vary in cost and convenience but not effectiveness.

To show someone read the optional parts, I think you got a fairly honest story about the Guild 12. Today my dealer wants 50% cash up front to place an order, does not officially advertise a flat 40% MSRP and while most items are 40% MSRP, some are not. Depending upon which model it was and when, Guild 12's were rare enough that if you ordered a new one you would wait months.

Have you considered getting your wife to play guitar? Mine had dabbled in guitar and indeed my original reasons to own an acoustic bass guitar were to assist her. I then made the "mistake" of getting her a Guild and now she has five. Needless to say that makes for a different conversation when I get interested in another instrument. This is important because, while Guilds are wonderful, it seems like no matter how good your first Guild there is always something a second Guild could do that your first one doesn't. Adding a 12 string seems like an obvious next step for you.

We at LTG love our American made Guilds. But except for the extremely xenophobic, most people think the Westerly Collection (Guilds made in China) is competitive at its price point and decent guitars at a good price. That may be a compromise between your budget and your need (and yes, you NEED another Guild) for another Guild. You can always upgrade in the future when your budget allows.

PittPastor · Oct 9, 2017

Cougar said:
My like-new Corona-built JF30-12 is one of the best 12ers in the world, snagged a couple years ago for $800! There are good deals out there!

I have to say, Cougar -- that 12 String would look great on the wall next to my DG40C...

PittPastor · Oct 9, 2017

fronobulax said:
Do not obsess about how to humidify. Just do it. There is only one wrong way to humidify a guitar and that is to not do it. Once you are comfortable with that, anything that actually allows water to drip on the wood is a candidate for improvement but even that damage is likely easier to repair than humidity cracks.

OK, that is actually really good to know. I am going to ask the Luthier today what he recommends, but after that, I'll get something quickly and start the "undrying" process.

fronobulax said:
To show someone read the optional parts, I think you got a fairly honest story about the Guild 12. Today my dealer wants 50% cash up front to place an order, does not officially advertise a flat 40% MSRP and while most items are 40% MSRP, some are not. Depending upon which model it was and when, Guild 12's were rare enough that if you ordered a new one you would wait months.

I'm actually glad to hear you say that. I always thought he just wanted to move the in-stock merchandise. But I liked the guy and wouldn't want to think he was playing fast and loose with some kid's Life Savings Guitar Money.

fronobulax said:
Have you considered getting your wife to play guitar?

Highly unlikely. And she does have her own hobbies. But unfortunately, they are all MUCH cheaper than a GUILD Obsession! Besides, she is earnestly trying to get rid of all of our debt. I support the effort -- even if it makes me wait for some things.

fronobulax said:
This is important because, while Guilds are wonderful, it seems like no matter how good your first Guild there is always something a second Guild could do that your first one doesn't. Adding a 12 string seems like an obvious next step for you.

Ha! And believe me I know it! I played a borrowed 12 string GUILD in church a couple of times from a guy who used to come... then stopped coming for awhile. Now he's back. And guess what: He sold the 12 String for $500 in that time he was not coming. I told we're in the business of forgiving and forgetting in our church... but not giving me a shot at the Guild 12 String was testing every inch of my Christianity!

fronobulax said:
We at LTG love our American made Guilds. But except for the extremely xenophobic, most people think the Westerly Collection (Guilds made in China) is competitive at its price point and decent guitars at a good price. That may be a compromise between your budget and your need (and yes, you NEED another Guild) for another Guild. You can always upgrade in the future when your budget allows.

I think if I ever really NEEDED a Guild, then I would certainly consider a GAD, or MIC, or whatever. But until that day comes, I will keep an eye out for a deal on a MIA Vintage Guild.

One thing I really need to do is play different styles of guitars. I really don't know what I don't know at this point. I have no idea what nut size I like best, or how many frets i really need, or what neck style fits my playing. I have pretty much shaped my playing around my Guild over the years. But I should try different things before I go for my next Guitar I think. I mean, if present trends continue, I'll have it until I die probably ... so worth taking time on...

Cougar · Oct 9, 2017

PittPastor said:
I have to say, Cougar -- that 12 String would look great on the wall next to my DG40C...

Well, as great as they look, all my guitars stay in their cases with a plastic baggie punched with small holes and a nice damp sponge inside. With a $5 hygrometer in the case to tell me the in-case humidity is between 40% and 50%. Best o' luck!

adorshki · Oct 9, 2017

PittPastor said:
I've never stopped thinking about that 12 String! The one I played was blonde. Amazing sound. One day...

Welcome aboard, "Pastor"!
Count me in the school that believes repairing a fine old Guild that has that much history with you as being worth every penny.
Particularly if you try to compare what the repair dollars would buy you, in a new (or even recent build) instrument.
And according to experienced owners the sound will not suffer from the repairs you describe.
As for blonde 12-string jumbos, it was most likely an F412, the 12-string version of the all-maple bodied F50 which was most commonly built in "blonde" finish.
The JF3012-12 in Cougar's post was a slightly "de-blinged" version of that model, and it was also known as a JF65-12 in a '90's version.
Given the extremely high incidence of new owners succumbing to all the temptation they're subjected to here and buying more Guilds, I see a new-for-you maple Guild jumbo 12-string in the not-too-distant future.
Don't say we didn't warn you.
:glee:

adorshki · Oct 9, 2017

PittPastor said:
Still not sure how he didn't show up when I searched "Luthiers near me" -- I did get several Lutheran churches in the search results,

AHA!
I always just knew there had to be a religion for guitar lovers!

PittPastor · Oct 9, 2017

What the Luthier Said

OK, got back from visiting Stuart Day. Very interesting trip. It was interesting to watch him work. We barely said hello. He just took the guitar and headed straight to his work bench, he took out his lighted mirror on the extend-a-wand. All kinds of measurement tools. He played it a little bit. Especially up and down the fretboard. I didn't know what to expect, but honestly, if I thought about how it would go, this would probably be about it.

I don't know how to repair guitars, but I debug programs for a living, and I kind of got what he was doing.

When all was done, this was the assessment. As he said, he can't tell me whether I should repair the Guild. He can only tell me market value. Basically, to fully repair the GUILD (not refinishing it, just total repair) would cost about as much as the Guild cost when I first bought it, 36 years ago.

That said, he confessed if it were his, he would repair it -- even if he had to pay someone $850. He said everyone is different, but his opinion is every guitar that plays well should be fixed -- and he said this Guild has a great acoustic sound. He said it several times as he tested it. "Really nice acoustic sound," he said. "Not heavy but the bass is there without overpowering the overall sound. And the trebles ring clean, not shrill. Just a really good acoustic sound."

He told me he had a guy in last week with a $200 Yamaha. It needed $350 worth of repairs. They guy left to think about it. He didn't ask Stuart what he thought but Stuart said: "I would have repaired that guitar in a minute. It was a great sounding guitar, I don't care how much it cost. You could buy 20 more Yamahas and never get that guitar again. I just think a guitar like that should be heard."

So... a rundown of what does and doesn't need done.

The cracks were surface only. The split I am worried about is actually only the lacquer, not the wood, and right now isn't a concern. He does agree with everyone on here that says I need a humidifier/dehumidifier for it. He said the problem in Pittsburgh right now is that it it too humid, running about 65% right now. So, actually it need dehumidifier now, and in the winter it will need a humidifier.

The "incident" repair he spent some time on. he wasn't a big fan of the work. They didn't cleat it, they just super-glued it. I told him that was 20 years ago and he said: "Well, Super Glue is powerful stuff." He checked it and even though he said it could have been done and been less noticeable, and it should have been cleated, at this point he said he really wouldn't worry about it.

He double checked the installment of the Fishman UTS pickup and said it was fine. He believes the quack I am hearing is actually something else.

So now the bad news (but somewhat expected.)

It needs refretted. 36 Years of playing has worn the frets down. I sort of expected that. He asked me if I get buzzing when playing it, and I told him yeah, but I always assumed it was me. He said, don't assume that. You've been driving around on bald tires. You won't know if it is you or the car until you replace the tires.

It also needs... drumroll please... the Neck reset. He thinks that is what is causing the quack. The bridge is so low to make up for the neck alignment that I am not getting the full tension on the bridge and that can cause the UST tranducer to be missing some of the note. It is also affecting the sound. He told me if I did the neck resetting, I would notice a big difference in the volume of the guitar. It wouldn't sound different, just louder. (BTW, if anyone is curious, it is a dovetail joint neck.)

So, it is with him now for the fret job. I will probably wait a year or so (or until the next bonus comes in) to do the neck reset, but eventually I will. In fact, he told me that if it were him, he would start with the fret job because that would make it more playable. The neck reset needs done, but it isn't critical, and as long as I am happy with the sound not needed yet.

So, I'll be without it for about 2 (VERY LONG) weeks. He thinks it will actually be faster than that but he adds some time in case he has to redo the lacquer because it takes time to dry. At least I have the little Mark II here. Time to work on some classical stuff!

PittPastor · Oct 9, 2017

adorshki said:
Welcome aboard, "Pastor"!
As for blonde 12-string jumbos, it was most likely an F412, the 12-string version of the all-maple bodied F50 which was most commonly built in "blonde" finish.

OK. Nice to know! That way I have a target...

adorshki said:
The JF3012-12 in Cougar's post was a slightly "de-blinged" version of that model, and it was also known as a JF65-12 in a '90's version.
Given the extremely high incidence of new owners succumbing to all the temptation they're subjected to here and buying more Guilds, I see a new-for-you maple Guild jumbo 12-string in the not-too-distant future.
Don't say we didn't warn you.
:glee:

This is a very dangerous forum! :drunk:

Cougar · Oct 9, 2017

PittPastor said:
....It needs refretted..... It also needs... drumroll please... the Neck reset.....

Yeah, new frets will be good. If you're going to wait on the neck reset, did Stuart Day mention the possibility of ramping the bridge pin holes? This is usually reasonably priced, and it recovers some of the volume lost due to the low saddle by increasing the break angle a bit, and thus the tension on the saddle.

Rayk · Oct 9, 2017

PittPastor said:
OK, got back from visiting Stuart Day. Very interesting trip. It was interesting to watch him work. We barely said hello. He just took the guitar and headed straight to his work bench, he took out his lighted mirror on the extend-a-wand. All kinds of measurement tools. He played it a little bit. Especially up and down the fretboard. I didn't know what to expect, but honestly, if I thought about how it would go, this would probably be about it.

I don't know how to repair guitars, but I debug programs for a living, and I kind of got what he was doing.

When all was done, this was the assessment. As he said, he can't tell me whether I should repair the Guild. He can only tell me market value. Basically, to fully repair the GUILD (not refinishing it, just total repair) would cost about as much as the Guild cost when I first bought it, 36 years ago.

That said, he confessed if it were his, he would repair it -- even if he had to pay someone $850. He said everyone is different, but his opinion is every guitar that plays well should be fixed -- and he said this Guild has a great acoustic sound. He said it several times as he tested it. "Really nice acoustic sound," he said. "Not heavy but the bass is there without overpowering the overall sound. And the trebles ring clean, not shrill. Just a really good acoustic sound."

He told me he had a guy in last week with a $200 Yamaha. It needed $350 worth of repairs. They guy left to think about it. He didn't ask Stuart what he thought but Stuart said: "I would have repaired that guitar in a minute. It was a great sounding guitar, I don't care how much it cost. You could buy 20 more Yamahas and never get that guitar again. I just think a guitar like that should be heard."

So... a rundown of what does and doesn't need done.

The cracks were surface only. The split I am worried about is actually only the lacquer, not the wood, and right now isn't a concern. He does agree with everyone on here that says I need a humidifier/dehumidifier for it. He said the problem in Pittsburgh right now is that it it too humid, running about 65% right now. So, actually it need dehumidifier now, and in the winter it will need a humidifier.

The "incident" repair he spent some time on. he wasn't a big fan of the work. They didn't cleat it, they just super-glued it. I told him that was 20 years ago and he said: "Well, Super Glue is powerful stuff." He checked it and even though he said it could have been done and been less noticeable, and it should have been cleated, at this point he said he really wouldn't worry about it.

He double checked the installment of the Fishman UTS pickup and said it was fine. He believes the quack I am hearing is actually something else.

So now the bad news (but somewhat expected.)

It needs refretted. 36 Years of playing has worn the frets down. I sort of expected that. He asked me if I get buzzing when playing it, and I told him yeah, but I always assumed it was me. He said, don't assume that. You've been driving around on bald tires. You won't know if it is you or the car until you replace the tires.

It also needs... drumroll please... the Neck reset. He thinks that is what is causing the quack. The bridge is so low to make up for the neck alignment that I am not getting the full tension on the bridge and that can cause the UST tranducer to be missing some of the note. It is also affecting the sound. He told me if I did the neck resetting, I would notice a big difference in the volume of the guitar. It wouldn't sound different, just louder. (BTW, if anyone is curious, it is a dovetail joint neck.)

So, it is with him now for the fret job. I will probably wait a year or so (or until the next bonus comes in) to do the neck reset, but eventually I will. In fact, he told me that if it were him, he would start with the fret job because that would make it more playable. The neck reset needs done, but it isn't critical, and as long as I am happy with the sound not needed yet.

So, I'll be without it for about 2 (VERY LONG) weeks. He thinks it will actually be faster than that but he adds some time in case he has to redo the lacquer because it takes time to dry. At least I have the little Mark II here. Time to work on some classical stuff!

Good to know he got right on it .
Ok so what does 850 get you ? Or was that for everything ?

walrus · Oct 9, 2017

Sounds like Mr. Day knows his stuff, and that you are in good hands!

walrus

PittPastor · Oct 9, 2017

Cougar said:
Yeah, new frets will be good. If you're going to wait on the neck reset, did Stuart Day mention the possibility of ramping the bridge pin holes? This is usually reasonably priced, and it recovers some of the volume lost due to the low saddle by increasing the break angle a bit, and thus the tension on the saddle.

He did. And he also talked about planing the fretboard down at a slight angle. Basically, we'll do what we can. But thanks for asking!

PittPastor · Oct 9, 2017

Rayk said:
Good to know he got right on it .
Ok so what does 850 get you ? Or was that for everything ?

$850 would be for the neck reset, the refret, re-planing the fretboard, and replacing the bone bridge. Plus refinishing all of the areas of the guitar that the re-setting the neck would disrupt.

I think the refret+ he is doing for $235 plus tax. The rest is the neck reset and refinish (plus redoing the saddle.)

That was a verbal quote. He probably has a formal price list. He is to send me an invoice through email, but that is what he told me verbally.

We also discussed replacing the nut with bone (its plastic now) and he said he could clean up the repair the guy in Texas did -- though he said there was really no need since it is holding fine.

It doesn't really matter, since I am going to stick with a local guy (it just makes sense) but how do those prices compare with what you are seeing?

adorshki · Oct 9, 2017

PittPastor said:
$850 would be for the neck reset, the refret, re-planing the fretboard, and replacing the bone bridge. Plus refinishing all of the areas of the guitar that the re-setting the neck would disrupt.

Silicon Valley CA pricing at a good shop 5 years ago would be $11-1200 easy, including full refret and re-finish, 2 things often left out of re-set prices.

PittPastor said:
I think the refret+ he is doing for $235 plus tax.It doesn't really matter, since I am going to stick with a local guy (it just makes sense) but how do those prices compare with what you are seeing?

Full refret on D25 was $275.00 5 years ago, included strings and after-the-job set-up adjustments if needed.

Rayk · Oct 9, 2017

PittPastor said:
$850 would be for the neck reset, the refret, re-planing the fretboard, and replacing the bone bridge. Plus refinishing all of the areas of the guitar that the re-setting the neck would disrupt.

I think the refret+ he is doing for $235 plus tax. The rest is the neck reset and refinish (plus redoing the saddle.)

That was a verbal quote. He probably has a formal price list. He is to send me an invoice through email, but that is what he told me verbally.

We also discussed replacing the nut with bone (its plastic now) and he said he could clean up the repair the guy in Texas did -- though he said there was really no need since it is holding fine.

It doesn't really matter, since I am going to stick with a local guy (it just makes sense) but how do those prices compare with what you are seeing?

Depends my local guy is about 250 ,do you get some and downs with the pricing, ask him to throw in Evo gold frets and you won’t have replace them ever again lol

850 for all he’s doing is a good deal I feel .
PayPal has 6 months free interest

I like deals

Can’t wait to hear a tune form her .

PittPastor · Oct 9, 2017

adorshki said:
Silicon Valley CA pricing at a good shop 5 years ago would be $11-1200 easy, including full refret and re-finish, 2 things often left out of re-set prices.
Full refret on D25 was $275.00 5 years ago, included strings and after-the-job set-up adjustments if needed.

Well, I should probably double check that all of that was included in the neck reset. But, yeah, his prices seemed REALLY reasonable considering who he is and what he has studied. I think part of it is where he is. Pittsburgh isn't LA. But that worries me a little. I want this guy to succeed! Hate to see him have to go work for a furnishing company or something. I don't know how big the music scene is here. I think basically it consists of bands doing all covers at local bars mostly. Frustrating. Pittsburgh used to be so much more. I guess the brain drain of losing so many people when the Steel Mills closed down really affected things. IDK. I left for 20+ years myself.

It's coming back as a tech center -- but I guess they aren't guitarists. IDK. Don't see much activity like I used to. Pittsburgh used to be a top 10 concert stop. We got everything and everyone. Now -- not so much...

PittPastor · Oct 9, 2017

Rayk said:
Depends my local guy is about 250 ,do you get some and downs with the pricing, ask him to throw in Evo gold frets and you won’t have replace them ever again lol

850 for all he’s doing is a good deal I feel .
PayPal has 6 months free interest
I like deals

Can’t wait to hear a tune form her .

Me too! Except now if the frets buzz I can't blame the guitar!

fronobulax · Oct 10, 2017

A couple years ago I was getting ballpark quotes of $400-$600 for neck resets in NoVA. These were over the phone, no inspection quotes. Not everyone I checked with was willing or able to do a reset. So your price seems reasonable.

I paid more attention to the Pirates than the music scene when I was in Pittsburgh in the mid '70's but I have often regretted that I did not go to Oakland to hear what was then a new band, in a bar that held about 100. The name of this band is Talking Heads.

PittPastor · Oct 10, 2017

Cougar said:
Yeah, new frets will be good. If you're going to wait on the neck reset, did Stuart Day mention the possibility of ramping the bridge pin holes? This is usually reasonably priced, and it recovers some of the volume lost due to the low saddle by increasing the break angle a bit, and thus the tension on the saddle.

I actually answered you wrong before. So many things were thrown out, I guess I mixed them up. We had not discussed ramping before. I emailed Stuart to make sure, and this was his reply:

"The ramps are temporary solutions that cause a permanent alteration to the bridge and it only corrects for the downward pressure on the saddle… it does not create the correct torque on the top as I was describing.

So, I didn’t suggest it because I
A- don’t know that it will fix the quacking in the pickup until I do the fret dress and see if that resolves the issue first
B- I’d have to cut slots into your bridge that would only serve as a temporary fix to a problem that is not your most major problem
C- you seemed intent on doing the neck set at some point in which case there is no point in ramping.

If you wanted to try the ramps with the possibility of not doing the neck set, we could try that. But it may or may not fix the problem.
"

Based on this, I will hold off on the ramps. I will do the Neck Reset eventually.

The thing he had described, which I thought was ramping, is putting in "rosewood bridge plate plugs" -- this is where the ball of the string presses up into the bottom of the bridge plate (from the inside). Four of those have worn down and it causes the string to come up into the peg hole too far. I am going to have those fixed. I think he basically drills out the peg hole and glues in rosewood plugs of proper diameter to keep the ball ends of the strings in place.

FWIW.

Thanks for all of the comments!

geoguy · Oct 10, 2017

He sounds like a knowledgeable fellow . . . I would trust his judgement re: what repairs to perform (or not perform).

My GUILD Story -- Is it time for a new Guild?

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