Sonic difference between Guild F512 and F412 12 strings?

bones4fido

Junior Member
Joined
Oct 24, 2017
Messages
11
Reaction score
0
I'm a 1 man band so obviously I need the biggest sound that I can get. Which of these would fill the bill better? Thanks
 

Westerly Wood

Venerated Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2007
Messages
13,329
Reaction score
6,501
Guild Total
2
While I wish I owned both of them, or even one of these iconic Guild guitars, I have heard the 512 is just super powerful and a beast. the 412 will be brighter sounding due to maple back and sides, but i think either can fit the one man band bill. the jumbo body is the key and i know maple provides good clarity to the jumbo body.

but many 512 fans and owners in here so i look forward to their weighing in.
 

adorshki

Reverential Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2009
Messages
34,176
Reaction score
6,790
Location
Sillycon Valley CA
I'm a 1 man band so obviously I need the biggest sound that I can get. Which of these would fill the bill better? Thanks

Even though I only have a small bit of experience with a buddy's archback maple body variant, I'm going to extrapolate from traditional 6-string "wisdom" that half the decision might rest on whether you play predominantly chords or finger pick.
Generically it's believed that flatbacks (F512) yield crisper more focused sound and would be preferred by finger pickers. They inherently have less sustain so individual notes are less likely to be "blurred" by the decaying sound of the preceding notes.
Rosewood itself is said to produce a loot of overtones which help "beef up" the sound of the instrument.
Think David Gilmour for F512: rosewood flatback sound.
Archbacks generically are supposed to enhance sustain and overtones AND volume, so would be ideal for getting a very lush sound from chords.
Maple contrary to popular belief is supposed to have well balanced output from bass to treble range but is a bit dry in overtone production so an archback enhances its sound .
Think Stevie Ray Vaughan acoustic "Pride and Joy" for F412.
I can tell you between my two hog-body dreadnoughts, the D25 and the D40, I now can hear how much clearer the D40 (flatback) sounds, especially on something like a cell phone.
The D25 with archback but otherwise dimensionally identical can get downright muddy sounding if pushed too hard in recording, but for live performing without a mic (busking) it's a cannon.
That's the arched back talkin'.
My shallow-body archback maple guitar is also somewhat muddy compared to the D40, but it produces some exotic reverberations that I think are the result of frequency intermodulation emphasized by the arched back, and a cell phone picks it up more readily than a standard Mark 1 Human Ear.
One of our members mentioned once it almost sounded like phase shifting during a fast strumming passage. (I don't know any other kind, LOL!).
Hope that helps!
 
Last edited:

Brad Little

Senior Member
Gold Supporting
Joined
Dec 19, 2008
Messages
4,611
Reaction score
2,001
Location
Connecticut
I can't recall if I've ever played a 412, but I have the six string version, F-50, and can compare it to my 512. The archback maple would probably have a little more volume with fewer, or less obvious, overtones, what some would say less richness. I've read that some people prefer maple for recording, can't say I've any experience there. The archback also is said to project outward more than rosewood, but since I'm always behind it, can't verify this from experience. I think the F-50 has more in common with a good acoustic archtop than most flattops, probably the combination of maple body and arched back.
It's a different kettle of fish, but I actually prefer my old F-212 for anything bluesy on 12, not sure if it's the mahogany or the fact that I've played it for 50 years.
Brad
 
Last edited:

Rayk

Enlightened Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2015
Messages
5,769
Reaction score
1,173
Oooo yeah all of them ! I so wish haha

What can I add to this ? Not a whole lot as it depends if you sing a lot the best match would be the F212 as the dryer mahogany tone blends better with vocalists .
Rosewood gives more over tones which could clash with the vox side .

The 412 hmmm hard she is but again depending on your style this one will crank out the amps leaning more to the bright side she likes to cut through the mix and be heard .

The 512 likes to sing like angles and sometimes hate having you sing along messing up her spot light moment .

The F212 well she’s caring , caressing , loving and willing to serve . She likes to work with vocals and sits well in mixes but yet can stand out time to time when asked .

All of the above depends on the build and luck of the draw and on the most excellent woods used , meaning each model can change some within the above discription depending on the quality of the woods it’s made with .;)
 

txbumper57

Enlightened Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2014
Messages
7,577
Reaction score
58
Location
Texas
I have 2 New Hartford made F512's and I have never had an issue nor heard of an issue singing while you play one.

I have played F412's, F212XL's, F512's, and the Holy Grail Guild F612 and I can say that they are all excellent guitars in their own way. Something to consider before we get into the different jumbo 12 string models is that The Guild Jumbo 12 String models are the Benchmark by which all other 12 string guitars are compared to . They are truly the cream of the crop when it comes to tone, design, and quality. Honestly you can;t go wrong with any of the American Made Guild Jumbo 12 string models in my opinion.

Lets start off with the F212XL. These are Jumbo sized just like the F412 and F512 models. They have Solid Sitka tops and Solid Mahogany Back and sides. More of a Standard appearance package with dot fret markers when compared to the Bling of the 412 and 512. In my Experience the F212XL has a nice Warm tone you would expect from a Spruce/Hog guitar with more of a pronounced mid range to them. They still have great lows and highs and perform wonderfully whether they are finger picked, Flat picked, thumb strummed or strummed with a pick. They also have Great note separation with a wonderful ring to it.

Next is the F412. These guitars have a Solid Sitka top with solid Maple sides and a Laminated Arched Maple back with no internal back bracing. The lack of internal back bracing allows the sound waves to reflect off of the arched back and create a wonderful projection of tone through the soundhole. The Maple lends itself to more of a Dry Crisp tone and the arched back actually allows for some overtones not normally associated with other maple guitars. These guitars have great Volume and overall projection but really cut through the mix when you start digging in with a flat pick. They still perform well when fingerpicked or strumming chords but the most noticeable characteristic to me is the punchy sound they create which can be almost percussive.

The F512 is my personal favorite and pretty much is known as the King of the 12 strings. These have solid Sitka tops and Solid Rosewood back and sides. They have a well balanced extremely rich tone across the entire spectrum and excel in all styles of playing from finger style to flat picking. The overtones are amazing on these guitars and when strumming chords it sounds like you have an Orchestra playing along with you. Also when picking individual notes acoustically it sounds like you have a Chorus pedal hooked up to the guitar. Great Bass response and sparkling mids/highs are also aspects of the F512's tone. Some folks have described these guitars as sounding like you have 10,000 angels singing along with you when you play. Like I mentioned earlier I have never had an issue with the F512 drowning out a vocal, If anything it enhances everything around it.

The F612 I can pretty much say sounds like someone playing 2 F512's in Stereo, LOL. If you are not careful you can blow the windows out of the house with it if you want to.

I hope this info helps and as always it is just my opinion on the subject, others may vary.

TX
 
Last edited:

dbirchett

Member
Joined
Oct 2, 2006
Messages
938
Reaction score
90
You probably should consider the 212XL as well. I find mahogany bodied guitars (or Koa, or Blackwood) to have a sweeter, more forgiving sound. In a one-man situation, it may blend better with your voice than Maple or Rosewood. Maple or Rosewood will project and stand out more in a group situation. There is no bad choice here just better and best!
 

Rayk

Enlightened Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2015
Messages
5,769
Reaction score
1,173
I have 2 New Hartford made F512's and I have never had an issue nor heard of an issue singing while you play one.
TX

I think you might referring to my comment if so maybe I should have said it more like this .

Quote
“If you’re using your guitar for vocal accompaniment, you might notice that certain wood combinations provide a better platform for your voice than others. Indian and Brazilian Rosewoods are rich, reverberant tonewoods with lots of ring and gorgeous overtones, with Brazilian offering even more brilliance and clarity than Indian. With the Rosewoods, notes run together beautifully as you play. Mahogany has a woody, somewhat sweeter sound with fewer overtones than Rosewood. Maple has a drier, percussive tone and a quicker decay to its note, so it’s interesting to hear how the various woods support or surround your own voice. If your voice is similar in timbre to your guitar’s voice, the two can end up competing–in a way–for space.”

I myself have not had issues either with Rosewood
But I have read many articles that stated Rosewood more then the others leaning towards the side of “ competing for space “

This will be the term I use from now on but with one added word “ competeing for sonic space “
I like that better it sounds more “Lost in Space “‘ like and sciency too 😁
 

txbumper57

Enlightened Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2014
Messages
7,577
Reaction score
58
Location
Texas
I think you might referring to my comment if so maybe I should have said it more like this .

Quote
“If you’re using your guitar for vocal accompaniment, you might notice that certain wood combinations provide a better platform for your voice than others. Indian and Brazilian Rosewoods are rich, reverberant tonewoods with lots of ring and gorgeous overtones, with Brazilian offering even more brilliance and clarity than Indian. With the Rosewoods, notes run together beautifully as you play. Mahogany has a woody, somewhat sweeter sound with fewer overtones than Rosewood. Maple has a drier, percussive tone and a quicker decay to its note, so it’s interesting to hear how the various woods support or surround your own voice. If your voice is similar in timbre to your guitar’s voice, the two can end up competing–in a way–for space.”

I myself have not had issues either with Rosewood
But I have read many articles that stated Rosewood more then the others leaning towards the side of “ competing for space “

This will be the term I use from now on but with one added word “ competeing for sonic space “
I like that better it sounds more “Lost in Space “‘ like and sciency too 

That is an interesting take Ray. I have Guilds in every tone wood you mentioned and some you didn't and I have never had issues with competing for sonic space between vocals and Acoustic guitars. That is the first time I have ever heard of that. I actually do a lot of song writing both composition wise and lyrically on my F512's as I find they add another layer of texture to things. Each to their own I guess.

TX
 
Last edited:

bones4fido

Junior Member
Joined
Oct 24, 2017
Messages
11
Reaction score
0
That's interesting about guitar and vocals fighting for frequency space. I have a resonant baritone voice and the gal that I sing with is a soprano. I'm wondering if a mahogany based guitar would do better to compromise for both. I still like having that big bottom end though. I might have to rethink the F512
 

Rayk

Enlightened Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2015
Messages
5,769
Reaction score
1,173
I would have to say the main reason for sonic space leans more towards the recording side .

If you got into recording and laying down multiple tracks every voice and instrument has to have its own sonic space otherwise it would blend together in a muddy mess . Think of 6pc band playing let’s say in a 10x10 room and your listening from the open door each instrument and voice will be fighting to be heard some will even get lost , all the frequencies will mesh up .

The reason recorded music sounds so good is the sepration done to each track and instrument so you can fully hear each musical part as clearly/individually as possible .

Eq’n can fix or fudge subtleties in a track but not all . Studios have gear that the local bands won’t when playing live heck most of can’t fantom the gear studio use to get the sounds they do lol

So for the average joe they might never know their having a said sonic clash , how would they recognize it ? Unless someone pointed it out and that person most likely would have to have some experience in that department.
 

Rayk

Enlightened Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2015
Messages
5,769
Reaction score
1,173
That's interesting about guitar and vocals fighting for frequency space. I have a resonant baritone voice and the gal that I sing with is a soprano. I'm wondering if a mahogany based guitar would do better to compromise for both. I still like having that big bottom end though. I might have to rethink the F512

I would say yes most definitely.
A quality recording would offer the best insight .
Again I will say that each Guitar is different so one rosewood might sound bad with the two of you singing while another could be more tame and a better fit on the sonic side .
😁
 
Top