Sanding the finish ?

Rayk

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Hey all this most likely will be a short thread .

In talking Ben wilborm in regards to repairing the the F47 he said he actually used a French polish to match the look . Apparently Ben says the finish was never sanded from the factory ( between coats ? ) which I would think it’s a one step process, a spray it and go thing .

Standard practice or other ? My Cv-1 is on the same page no grain filler or multi coats .

Would this be one more factor added to custom builds that factories can’t afford to do ? Was a common practice or just to some factory locations ?
 

adorshki

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In talking Ben wilborm in regards to repairing the the F47 he said he actually used a French polish to match the look . Apparently Ben says the finish was never sanded from the factory ( between coats ? ) which I would think it’s a one step process, a spray it and go thing .
NCL high gloss finishes are normally built up in layers: spray a coat, let it dry, spray another.
I understand buffing between coats is also done but don't know if it's done to every coat.
Never heard of sanding the lacquer itself, doesn't seem to make sense, but sanding pore filler before spraying does.
Would this be one more factor added to custom builds that factories can’t afford to do ?
Depends on "whose factory?".
Oxnard has a spray booth and the necessary CARB certs to spray nitro but as detailed above it's still very tine consuming and labor intensive and that's probably one of the 2 main reasons the HG finishes are limited to higher-end builds, for now at leas, and probably going forward too, I'd bet.
The other reason TXbumper mentioned recently is actual shortage of skilled sprayers.
It ain't as easy as one might expect, getting a nice even coat every time, with no drips, no orange-peeling, no bubbling due to not getting enough drying time between coats.
Was a common practice or just to some factory locations ?
Lacquer spraying techniques is very little-explored subject here.
I know for sure Westerly used pore filler and would be kind of surprised if subsequent locations didn't since it's also a sealer, helps ensure even drying of the lacquer to help creation of the smooth surface required for good gloss.
 

Rayk

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Hmm from I was reading from stewmac there’s one light tack coat then x amount of recoats depending on skill and boo boo fix’s lol which can be sanded . Recoats between 2-4 hrs .

Ben just told me he wet sands the final coat to assure levelness then buff .
 

Walter Broes

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There shouldn't be any need to sand between coats. Standard procedure is after multiple coats of lacquer, you have the lacquer cure for X amount of time, then wet sand (to get rid of "orange peel", and buff.

Very experienced finishers, on a well prepped surface and in ideal circumstances, can shoot lacquer so smooth there's no uneven-ness or orange peel whatsoever, and manage to bypass the wetsanding.
 

chazmo

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New Hartford did multiple coats of NCL. I don't recall any sanding or buffing between coats, but it's possible they did do that, as Walter mentioned, to deal with imperfections before the next coat. As I recally, they did buff the guitar after final finishing, but my memory is a little hazy on that. I'm pretty sure.
 

Walter Broes

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NCL is always quite a few coats, that's how that finish works. It goes on thin, and the next coat blends into the previous one to some extent. And it's not standard procedure at all to sand between coats.
 

davismanLV

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OH-kay here's the deal with lacquer. NCL or most any lacquer is it's own solvent. Every coat you spray melts into the previous one making one layer. That's why when you CHIP lacquer, it goes all the way down to whatever you put it over. It forms one piece of finish. The first few coats you just layer them on, one thin-ish coat over another. But if you just did that and left it, it wouldn't look flat or have that mirror finish. So after you have enough lacquer built up so you won't go through to the wood (or spit coated and sealed wood) you start to sand and LEVEL the finish. Spray, level, spray, level. That's how it goes and once you're done you spray, level, finish sand (super fine), possibly even 0000 steel wool and then you go after the buffing compounds or better yet, Heavy Cut Cleaner, which will polish it to a flat (level) and beautiful shine and gloss. These guitars don't look the way they do by just spraying gloss lacquer! There's a lot of work involved.

Here's Don's Martin 000 kit towards the end when we were buffing it out after many coats of lacquer and sanding. They don't look like this if you just spray. That's the way it's done on furniture and on guitars and on anything with a good lacquer finish.

O3uUAH.jpg
 

davismanLV

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p.s. - that's why they have these big buffing wheels in the guitar factories. Now Taylor is a different story. They use poly and it's a good finish. They've really tricked and fussed it down to be thinner than the old finishes. But it's layers on layers and layers and .... if you buff through one of those layers? You gotta start all over and go back to spraying. So poly tends to be thicker so you can work with it and that "break through" doesn't happen. There are definite advantages to poly!! It's not as fragile to the elements and sweat and moisture (but not impervious) AND it's not as susceptible to rapid temperature changes and you won't get finish checking when shipping in winter. So poly has advantages. More durable and resistant to temps. Alcohol and water not as much of a problem. Unfortunately if you crack or chip or wreck it...... it's not really repairable. Okay, I'm babbling.... it's post Happy Hour babbling.... I'll stop now. Promise!!! :devilish:
 
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beecee

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Good babble!

Nice work on that 000
 

Rayk

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Ben answered my final question which was
You sand between coats ? He said yes .

Ok that works for me because sometimes I need to pluck a nose hair and my mirror is all steamed up from the shower so it’s a next best thing . Haha 😆

I can say from what I’ve seen and that is ,there’s a buffed shiny finish then there’s a buffed mirror still water kind of finish .

Makes sense custom builders are more picky about their guitars . I was not sure the over all process when it comes to production . Guild along with any other manufacture would have to come up with a way to keep things moving with an exceptable result .

I found it interesting that Ben could tell that the guild was not sanded , I meam how the heck does one catch that ? Lol

I think the only reason he mentioned it was because of the way he had to match the look of the finish repair.

I find it all interesting :)
 
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fronobulax

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big buffing wheels in the guitar factories.

There were several wheels in New Hartford and they were in use during a couple LMG tours. My memory is that they were part of a spray, buff, spray, buff cycle but I will defer to anyone who was there and has a better memory. What I recall most about the finishing is that we saw what was eventually announced as the GSR Starfire hanging in a drying room and everyone was abuzz because it had not been announced at the time. We debated whether it was a genuine oversight on the part of the staff or whether we were being "teased".
 

Bill Ashton

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All I can add to this is that Guild in New Hartford did in fact use a pore-sealer...during one of the LMG's where we went through the paint/finish area, there were workers painting on this blackish looking goop which was explained as a filler coat...and I think that was a thing with the first Standards, that the filler coat was "synthetic" before the laquer finish coats to reduce drying time...Chazmo, do I have that right? At this point, aside from the pictures, the tours all seem to blur together...
 

fronobulax

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All I can add to this is that Guild in New Hartford did in fact use a pore-sealer...during one of the LMG's where we went through the paint/finish area, there were workers painting on this blackish looking goop which was explained as a filler coat...and I think that was a thing with the first Standards, that the filler coat was "synthetic" before the laquer finish coats to reduce drying time...Chazmo, do I have that right? At this point, aside from the pictures, the tours all seem to blur together...

I will confirm that one of the drivers for the Standard series was to reduce manufacturing costs and they definitely used a different technique of finishing them because it was faster.
 

chazmo

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All I can add to this is that Guild in New Hartford did in fact use a pore-sealer...during one of the LMG's where we went through the paint/finish area, there were workers painting on this blackish looking goop which was explained as a filler coat...and I think that was a thing with the first Standards, that the filler coat was "synthetic" before the laquer finish coats to reduce drying time...Chazmo, do I have that right? At this point, aside from the pictures, the tours all seem to blur together...
Exactly right, Bill. I don't know if the pore filler coat was actually synthetic or not, but I do remember them mentioning that possibility to us. What I recall them saying was that they were experimenting around with pore filler, and it's possible that they continued to do so throughout the run of the series. I.e., the Standard series axes were prepped with different pore sealer (than Traditionals, etc.) before going to the paint booth, where the NCL (lacquer) was applied in either fewer or quicker-drying cycles.

What I heard from NH management was that the achilles heel of production volume in NH was the finishing stage (not final assembly -- lacquer finishing). At an apres-event picnic at the first LMG in 2010, the shop manager, Frank Untermyer, came by on his bicycle and asked us what he thought people would feel about non-NCL finished guitars. Clearly, what he heard from us and what NH ultimately decided was that NCL was sacrosanct when building a Guild -- at least a Traditional model. So, they couldn't avoid that bottom line -- which was about two weeks (I'm not sure I remember that number correctly) in the paint booth for each Traditional guitar.
 

Bill Ashton

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Yes! We were at the State Park and Frank U came up in all his bike racing garb...thats where I got it! The final finish was lacquer but it was the filler or early coats that were not. Ultimately I believe the Standards became all NCL as well, though not all gloss.

We saw the first Standard at that time, and also you saw your F212XL prototype...I missed that, but in fact saw and played a dread-12 prototype...that everyone dismissed until it came out (ah yes, that wink from Kim, LOL)
 

chazmo

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:) We were the first members of the public to see the Standard series! In fact, I think I was the first human on the planet to place an order for one, the F-212XL Standard. I did that 2 seconds after I walked in the door after returning from that truly exciting weekend!

I wasn't the first to get one, though, but I like to think that my order made the prototype I saw ultimately become a reality. :) Speaking of finishing, Kim has one of the F-212XL prototypes with a completely different finish on it. Much lighter color, and I have no idea what pore filler or finish was used on it. Presumably part of the experimenting process before they started shipping them.

Yup, you saw a G-312 that I missed, Bill. That didn't come out until much later as a Standard series model, but I would be interested to know in the final analysis how many of each they built/sold. I wish I had that book from final assembly! :)
 

adorshki

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Yes! We were at the State Park and Frank U came up in all his bike racing garb...thats where I got it! The final finish was lacquer but it was the filler or early coats that were not. Ultimately I believe the Standards became all NCL as well, though not all gloss.
That rings the bell for me too, especially the comments about experimenting with different fillers, the filler being synthetic even though the actual finish was NC lacquer.
Doubtless that satin finish was simply the result of bypassing some if not all the buffing stages between coats.
I always saw it as analogous to Westerly's "HR" finish which was an NCL gel applied by hand, possibly sanded for even-ness but definitely not buffed.
In fact owners of those guitars say they do become "wear-buffed" and shine up in spots of frequent contact like the edge of a bout where a shirtsleeve might rub.
I'll bet the New Hartford Standards will too.
In fact I think somebody mentioned once they wanted to try it.

And then, speaking of coincidence, stumbled across this little phrase in an ad for Gibson LG2-AE not half an hour ago (because someone mentioned 'em in an F30 NGD thread):
"Finally, making it even more playable, Gibson's luthier's use a finer grit sandpaper and polishing compound on the high gloss finish."
Ok I was all set to rip 'em up for claiming that the gloss finish enhanced playability when I remembered some guys mentioned they like the feel of the satin-finished neck that the NH Standards had.
So I'll cut 'em some slack but I can't help but wonder:
"Instead of butter, plays like cream cheese?"
:glee:
 

chazmo

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Al, just to be clear, the early Standards were all gloss-bodied. Only the neck was satin. It was later that they did satin on the bodies as well. I don't know which models or when that transition happened.

The necks, having always been satin, were finished separately and probably were quicker through the paint booth in the beginning. Again, it was only later when they started doing satin on the bodies, and those probably were quicker as well.

But, as Bill said, these were all NCL finishes (just to clarify).

I've played Ensenada-built DV-4 and DV-6 which I think were using hand-rubbed, NCL-based finishes, and those feel nothing like the satin neck on my F-212XL Standard. That may not be how Westerly or Tacoma did it, but the hand-rubbed is MUCH more of a raw-wood feel.
 

Neal

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The Standard Series went from gloss bodies to satin somewhere in mid-2012. The F-50 STD I just sold to Bronzeback is gloss, with a finish date of February 9, 2012.
 
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kostask

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p.s. - that's why they have these big buffing wheels in the guitar factories. Now Taylor is a different story. They use poly and it's a good finish. They've really tricked and fussed it down to be thinner than the old finishes. But it's layers on layers and layers and .... if you buff through one of those layers? You gotta start all over and go back to spraying. So poly tends to be thicker so you can work with it and that "break through" doesn't happen. There are definite advantages to poly!! It's not as fragile to the elements and sweat and moisture (but not impervious) AND it's not as susceptible to rapid temperature changes and you won't get finish checking when shipping in winter. So poly has advantages. More durable and resistant to temps. Alcohol and water not as much of a problem. Unfortunately if you crack or chip or wreck it...... it's not really repairable. Okay, I'm babbling.... it's post Happy Hour babbling.... I'll stop now. Promise!!! :devilish:

Taylor does have a repair process for their poly finishes. It is required to go to Taylor's repair program, after which you can buy the poly and other chemicals, and a few tools dedicated to this repair process (includes a UV light of specific wavelength and intensity). Taylor does have all of this worked out. I have seen the end result, and it is invisible, even close up.

What they haven't worked out is that the poly finishes do dampen tone somewhat (a combination of thickness and flexibility) in comparison to nitro.
 
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