Did Guild ever make Nylon String Guitars that were NOT Classical?

PittPastor

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I think I remember the NADs having a model with nylon strings.

And, unless I am mistaken, the Doyle Dykes signature Guild had a nylon version. But I can't remember seeing any other models.

Anyone know of something else?
 

adorshki

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http://westerlyguildguitars.com/guitars/paloma.html

paloma.jpg


800px-Sting_by_Yancho_Sabev.JPG


Sting was an endorser.

I seem to have a vague recollection of an even earlier a/e from the '80's or early '90's that I saw shortly after I first joined.
I'll let somebody else confirm or refute.
Besides Hans, I bet Grot knows.
 

walrus

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I think those still have a classical neck, if that's what PittPastor is asking...

walrus
 

PittPastor

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I'm just building a list right now, walrus. Ideally, I was sort of looking something less than a 2" nut. But, wow, I never even knew about the Paloma. That's a pretty cool look.
 

adorshki

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I think those still have a classical neck, if that's what PittPastor is asking...
walrus
I got a sneaking suspicion he means something other than classical guitar, because he mentions the Doyle Dykes nylon string model.
Which by golly sure looks like it was fashioned from leftover Paloma bodies or at least the blueprints, which bear an incredible resemblance to S4ce's, all of 'em based on a solid slab of routed out 'hog with a spruce top, and S4ce's themselves unabashedly intended as "acoustic" versions of Nightbirds**:

http://guildguitars.com/g/doyle-dykes-signature-nylon/
artist_mainimage_ddnylon_4-1500x630.jpg

So as far as I can tell a Paloma's an S4ce with a classical neck and no soundhole needed due to the UST.
(Argument invited, it's kinda quiet right now anyway...)
Sheerly for the sake of stimulating grand repartee, what would be the point of nylon strings on anything other than a classical neck?
As far as I can see, they basically wouldn't work.
Y'need a certain amount of action height just to get the top driven and clean fretting without buzzing or muting, and a certain amount of nut width for the right hand tasks.
I figure the reason classicals haven't evolved much in a couple of hundred years is that they already kind of hit their evolutionary peak, and the neck's an integral part of it.
Bombast aside, am I missing something?

** George Gruhn, from here :
"I chose the name Nightbird for my new design. While this guitar looks like a relatively conservative solidbody, it is in fact radically different in construction from virtually anything that had preceded it. The back is routed hollow, except under the pickups and the stop tailpiece, to reduce feedback and provide a solid anchor for the tailpiece. The rest, including under the bridge, is hollow. The top is constructed of spruce, carved on the outside but flat on the inside."

George also mentions introducing the snakehead headstock in '84, on the acoustics Guild asked him to design before he became a shareholder, in that article.
 

adorshki

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If you don't want to have to plug in, Taylor makes nylon string acoustic guitars with a 1 7/8 neck width:

https://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/acoustic/browse?specialty=207

walrus

Yeah the Dykes is a whopping 1.9" vs 1.875" on the Taylor......assuming the Guild spec wasn't rounded up...and was consistent...
:glee:
(OK joking aside as a New Hartford build it probably was consistent but don't know if it was simply rounded up to the nearest 10th)

When I mentioned right hand tasks ealier it wasn't a typo, it was reference to some classical techniques that will create a very wide range of travel on the strings, thus the need for extra clearance between 'em, and even on the fretboard close to the nut.
Also enhances clean left hand-fretting, allows full 3-finger fretting of an "A" for example, and no worries about a finger unintentionally muting adjacent strings.

Good point about what to look for if you don't want to have to plug in though!
 
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PittPastor

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Sheerly for the sake of stimulating grand repartee, what would be the point of nylon strings on anything other than a classical neck?
As far as I can see, they basically wouldn't work.
Y'need a certain amount of action height just to get the top driven and clean fretting without buzzing or muting, and a certain amount of nut width for the right hand tasks.
I figure the reason classicals haven't evolved much in a couple of hundred years is that they already kind of hit their evolutionary peak, and the neck's an integral part of it.
Bombast aside, am I missing something?

In counter, I offer up that both Doyle Dykes and Chet Atkins seemed to like them...

For me, I am having some hand issues right now. I'm wondering if Nylon strings might be better until whatever it is going on with my left thumb finally heals...

(Oh, and the reason I wasn't looking at Classicals is that I have a Mark II Classical. If that's what I do, it's really easy, I just take the lil thing out of its case....)
 
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GuildFS4612CE

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fallacy that nylon strings are easier to play...they're pretty high tension...action usually higher...you're better off switching to silk and steel on a guitar you have and possibly tuning down a step, say to D standard.

With the wider fretboard you're going to have to drop your thumb lower on the back of the neck to be able to reach the wider string spacing and likely longer scale than you're accustomed to playing...suggest you go into a music store and try playing one to see for yourself.

Doyle can play any guitar, any scale...I've seen him do it...and I played his nylon string proto at NAMM...the fretboard was too wide for my hands...lovely instrument, tho.
 

adorshki

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In counter, I offer up that both Doyle Dykes and Chet Atkins seemed to like them...
I think you're just saying that both Mr Dykes and Mr Atkins seemed to like classical guitars "generically"? Sure, seems to be a fair assessment.
Not sure if I was misinterpreted but I was only trying to say I don't think nylons would work on the narrow necks typically found on steel string flattops.
Given the right neck the body could be varied according to individual tastes, although I suspect again that a certain range of sizes will be found to be best for optimizing sound.
Got a suspicion that it'd be hard to get nylons to drive a full-size dreadnought top to a satisfying level no matter how it was braced or how thin it was, for example..

For me, I am having some hand issues right now. I'm wondering if Nylon strings might be better until whatever it is going on with my left thumb finally heals...

OK, are you diagnosed with a definitive disorder or just hoping it's some kind of repetitive stress that will cure itself if the stress is reduced?
If the latter, I always advise people to look at their frethand technique.
One of the reasons I'm so adamant about using classical playing posture and fretting technique is because it's intended to put the least possible stress on the fretting hand.
Grabbing the neck like a baseball bat or the old "thumb over the fretboard" puts excess stress on the thumb's tendons and actually inhibits the range of motion of the fretting fingers.
The classical position mandates thumb perpendicular to back of neck, opposing the middle finger as perfectly as possible.
Touch tip of your thumb to the tip of your middle finger and make a perfect "O".
Then put the guitar neck between the fingers.
That should make issues about neck width irrelevant, on a classical.
Otherwise, I'd suggest going to silk'n'steel .010-.047 and even then tuning down a whole step.
You'll lose an appreciable amount of volume on a dreadnought but the string tension should be quite manageable.
But I still advocate the classical fretting position in all practical fretboard locations.
It should lower stress on your thumb tendons.
EDIT: I see Jane says the same thing.
And I was pleasantly surprised myself a couple of weeks ago when I decided to experimentally lower the tension on my F65ce a full step, on another member's suggestion.
It does take the .010 extra lights but I don't have the silk cores on that guitar, and I swear I think the guitar was actually louder.
Like the top was actually too tight at regular standard pitch.
And it was a whole lot more fun to play!.
I think I'm gonna keep it that way from here on out.
So keep an open mind about lowered tension, especially if there's an added therapeutic benefit desired.
ONE more EDIT:
Forgive me if all that classical technique theory was already known to you, I'd forgotten you actually already have a classical to work with!
 
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Sal

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Guild made a few nylon string crossover models with a 1-3/4" nut. Look for one of these three discontinued models; all have ebony fretboard, a venetian-style cutaway and the narrower 1 3/4” nut, but were built with different woods. And all of them "handcrafted in China."


GAD 4N: solid spruce top, solid mahogany back and sides
GAD 5N: solid cedar top, solid African padauk back and sides
GN-5: solid cedar top and solid rosewood back and sides


I have the 4N and love it. It's very well made and sounds great.

 

kostask

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The classical guitar world is in constant evolutionary mode. Perhaps even more so than the steel string acoustic world.

Ever hear of honeycomb tops made of almost paper thin veneers of wood sandwiching a honeycomb mesh of aramid/nylon composite?How about double tops? Bracing variations all over the map, from traditional fan bracing, to modified fan bracing, to Kasha bracing, to highly modified ladder bracing?

There are still a lot of experiments going on in the classical/nylon guitar world. Not nearly as much is going on in the steel string acoustic world.
 

PittPastor

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I have the 4N and love it. It's very well made and sounds great.

Hey Sal, thanks for the info! Can you tell me more about you GAD 4N? How is its action compared to your others -- both the Steel and the Mark I. Also, what do you think of the installed pickup?
 

adorshki

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A little cross-thread pollination (just posted over here: http://www.letstalkguild.com/ltg/sh...uhn-Walker-Designed-Developed-Guild-Acoustics )

86PL2.jpg


NOTE the solid-body nylon cutaway MKS-10 listed under the "Crossroads" series at the bottom of the middle section.
THAT's the earlier nylon-stringer I was thinking of when I posted the Paloma.
Sure enough, Kurt (Grot) has one:
1984MKS10CE.jpg


Looks to be a classical width neck, though.
 

PittPastor

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A little cross-thread pollination (just posted over here:
NOTE the solid-body nylon cutaway MKS-10 listed under the "Crossroads" series at the bottom of the middle section.
THAT's the earlier nylon-stringer I was thinking of when I posted the Paloma.
Sure enough, Kurt (Grot) has one:

Looks to be a classical width neck, though.

Yep. Interesting. Also interesting that they seemed to make a crossover guitar for Josh White, too.

I'm sure you've seen this:



(PS: I want to address the hand issue in another thread. I will get around to that... right now just slammed at work!)
 

chazmo

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Regarding the Doyle Dykes nylon... Doyle had been working with Luthier Kirk Sand in California when New Hartford built that model. I don't know how much of the design (if any) was Kirk's. Ironically, Kirk is either in or close to Oxnard. Maybe we'll see more of this going forward. I don't know for sure, but I suspect very few of the nylon model were ever built.
 

SFIV1967

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Regarding the Doyle Dykes nylon...I don't know for sure, but I suspect very few of the nylon model were ever built.
I almost believe that except the prototype which Doyle owns no second DD-6NC was made.
Ralf
 

Sal

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Hey Sal, thanks for the info! Can you tell me more about you GAD 4N? How is its action compared to your others -- both the Steel and the Mark I. Also, what do you think of the installed pickup?
The early 4N and 5N models came with a Seymour Duncan Timber-line pickup installed and that's what mine has. I think it's kind of a cheapy that is inconsistent in volume across the strings when it's plugged in. I mic it for recording anyways and don't plan to use it live but it would work fine in a pinch. They did later change to a Fishman pickup in the 4N & 5Ns and perhaps that was an upgrade but I can't say for sure and I haven't seen any reviews either way.

The GN-5 was released later and came with a Fishman Sonitone installed.

Other than its pickup I'm really impressed with my GAD 4N. It's beautifully made and nicely finished. The neck has a comfortable satin finish. The action is just on the high side very similar to other classicals I've played. These Guilds have flat fretboards like other classicals too whereas some crossover guitars have radiused fretboards.

I used to see these come up for sale more often and they tended to sell cheaply, maybe in the $400 to $600 range but I haven't seen one for sale in a while now. They came with a pretty nice case too; an attractive grey tweed.

Good luck. I hope this helps.
 
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