Not so fast...we have a problem with my M-20...unbelievable!

merlin6666

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Martin must do very little (if any) vetting of (at least some of) their Authorized Repair Shops. I would bet you a guitar that if Martin had ever laid eyes on this particular shop....they would not have been authorized to begin with.

My local luthier (who builds outstanding mandolins and guitars and also provides the top repair and maintenance services in the area) became a Martin dealer and Certified Repair Depot less than two years ago. Apparently there are not many certified depots in many countries and he considered this quite an honour. The process involved submitting references who got called by Martin for phone interviews. One of my friends who is a huge Martin fan but has got all service work since the 70s done at the luthier was one of the references. He said the interview was about half hour and included the predictable questions. I don't know what else is included in the certification process (e.g. some work examples, or records of repaired Martins) but references can certainly be highly biased toward the positive
 

Kitarkus

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My local luthier (who builds outstanding mandolins and guitars and also provides the top repair and maintenance services in the area) became a Martin dealer and Certified Repair Depot less than two years ago. Apparently there are not many certified depots in many countries and he considered this quite an honour. The process involved submitting references who got called by Martin for phone interviews. One of my friends who is a huge Martin fan but has got all service work since the 70s done at the luthier was one of the references. He said the interview was about half hour and included the predictable questions. I don't know what else is included in the certification process (e.g. some work examples, or records of repaired Martins) but references can certainly be highly biased toward the positive

Yes yes yes. There is also the old -- hey I'm getting older and nearing retirement...se la vie...lets ditch the insurance, take cash only, not deal with customers directly, not renew the corporate records, and see how long I can make this income last with minimal effort and expense(s) -- Just because once upon a time a shop or repair person were credible and motivated...does not mean that they will continue to be credible and motivated throughout the course of their career.

Your account of Martin's vetting process is highly believable. It would be hard to imagine that Martin would allow a shop to perform their warranty work without some vetting. Whether they follow-up and stay the course to ensure that their customers are receiving the best possible work...I don't know. I do know that Martin made a decision some years ago that they no longer wanted to handle the warranty work out of Nazareth (for obvious reasons) and rely on independent repair shops to perform warranty and repair work. I reiterate that I place no blame on Martin, however, farming out their warranty and repair work requires that they put forth serious effort in the selection of qualified shops and the continued certification and verification of some basic credentials.

Once a shop is 'authorized' by Martin....I'd guess that the only way that they become 'un-authorized' would be due to complaints/issues/problems.
 

Westerly Wood

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I've been playing this guitar for the better part of yesterday/today and only now noticed that the neck heel has been broken and repaired. It wasn't like this before and thus is apparent that the luthier broke the neck heel when he was removing for the neck reset. Luthier did not disclose this to me and gladly accepted my full payment for repairs. Ya...my eyes aren't as good as they used to be...but to the naked eye it is nearly invisible. Using a macro lens and flash...it looks bad. The guitar is an absolute joy to play and sounds great. What would you do?
S7SWQEN.jpg

i would roll with it and keep playing it. he should have disclosed the issue he created for sure, maybe give him a phone call. that being said, it is now a joy to play and you love it. so, that sounds more important.
 

geoguy

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FYI, not accepting credit cards saves that small business roughly 3.5 percent on each sale. He would need to raise his fees to cover that expense, if he chose to accept credit cards.
 

Kitarkus

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FYI, not accepting credit cards saves that small business roughly 3.5 percent on each sale. He would need to raise his fees to cover that expense, if he chose to accept credit cards.

Yes...I understand. I am a small business owner. In this case....this small authorized martin business owner is paying 10% to the guitar stores so that he gets paid in cash....and he no longer has a valid corporation on file with the state. Simple business decision?...not likely.
 

adorshki

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This particular shop does not advertise....anywhere. His biz card which I've had for years has an old now defunct number. He has no/zero web presence. He doesn't take credit cards. I don't know whether he is insured. He isn't in the 'phone book' and you can't find his shop name and phone number ANYWHERE aside from on Martin's website as an authorized warranty/service center. Martin's authorization provides a lot of credibility and thus a lot of business.

Sounds to me like somebody who's just trying to make a side income in their retirement years, not seeking to actively grow a business but simply cater to an existing base of established customers (Dealers who subcontract repair work).
Beyond Frono's observation that a shop may want to avoid getting cut out of their share of the repair costs, some of these guys really don't want to deal with the public, either.
While it's true that traditionally being an authorized repair center was a way of being fairly well assured of a constant stream of work, the down side is that warranty re-imbursement is notoriously underpaid and slow-pay besides, and can require the investment in a relatively slow-moving parts inventory as well.
I know of 2 local shops that took it on to help get established and then got out of it as soon as they could, for those 2 primary reasons in both cases.
 

Kitarkus

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Sounds to me like somebody who's just trying to make a side income in their retirement years, not seeking to actively grow a business but simply cater to an existing base of established customers (Dealers who subcontract repair work).
Beyond Frono's observation that a shop may want to avoid getting cut out of their share of the repair costs, some of these guys really don't want to deal with the public, either.
While it's true that traditionally being an authorized repair center was a way of being fairly well assured of a constant stream of work, the down side is that warranty re-imbursement is notoriously underpaid and slow-pay besides, and can require the investment in a relatively slow-moving parts inventory as well.
I know of 2 local shops that took it on to help get established and then got out of it as soon as they could, for those 2 primary reasons in both cases.

I agree with you on all accounts. Guitar lutherie isn't exactly akin, however, to the heating & cooling business or similar service industries. I don't doubt that the work provided directly by Martin is not the most lucrative, however, I can speculate that having your status as 'Martin Certified' brings in a LOT of biz from other more lucrative sources. Guitar owners should perform more due diligence than I had prior to dropping at the most convenient Martin Authorized Servicer for a neck reset. Just because they wear the ribbon doesn't mean that they are the belle of the ball.
 

jedzep

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It was one of those moments in life, Kit, and I'm not telling you anything you don't already know. Metal shed, dust, bugs, etc., makes your thoughts run, but everything's on the fly. So in the moment you let it go and give the guy the benefit of the doubt. That was a human and generous decision. Fast forward, if he hadn't subsequently tapped or rapped the heel at the wrong angle and/or with just a bit too much force, you would be singing his praises for getting the new neck angle correct and giving you a comfortable player. Trying to cover up was his 'screw up moment', but it could easily have gone better, or much worse.

Sometimes life is just that simple. I think you're passing through all this pretty well.

Wanna' buy another little Guild to keep the M20 company? I might have just the thing.
 

Kitarkus

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It was one of those moments in life, Kit, and I'm not telling you anything you don't already know. Metal shed, dust, bugs, etc., makes your thoughts run, but everything's on the fly. So in the moment you let it go and give the guy the benefit of the doubt. That was a human and generous decision. Fast forward, if he hadn't subsequently tapped or rapped the heel at the wrong angle and/or with just a bit too much force, you would be singing his praises for getting the new neck angle correct and giving you a comfortable player. Trying to cover up was his 'screw up moment', but it could easily have gone better, or much worse.

Sometimes life is just that simple. I think you're passing through all this pretty well.

Wanna' buy another little Guild to keep the M20 company? I might have just the thing.

I do have a touch of gas. PM me...I forewarn you.... there are only a few guitars that make my heart pitter patter right now... And yes they are the little ones
 

jp

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Hey there, Kitarkus -

Add one more congratulations to the pile. I'm glad you worked it out to your satisfaction and that you can move on and enjoy the guitar, despite such an emotionally negative incident. Good job on sticking to your guns!
 

fronobulax

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I'm highly doubtful that these shops have insurance policies which will cover repairs completed outside of their own brick/mortar.

My experience may be colliding with your doubts. One local shop, that outsources some repair work, explicitly states that they stand behind and guarantee the repair work regardless of where it was done. My contract for repair is with them and is unchanged whether they do the work in house or outsource. The financial risk to the store is mitigated by the terms of the contract between them and the subcontractor. Perhaps a subcontract, instead of a handshake, is normal procedure in the DC suburbs (which are full of lawyers) but not elsewhere?
 

fronobulax

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he no longer has a valid corporation on file with the state

"No longer" implies one thing. But I am not required to incorporate in order to provide many professional services. As long as I report the income and pay local business and professional taxes, I'm fine.

That said, "cash only" tends to imply a desire to operate independently of taxes and other regulations.
 

Kitarkus

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"No longer" implies one thing. But I am not required to incorporate in order to provide many professional services. As long as I report the income and pay local business and professional taxes, I'm fine.

That said, "cash only" tends to imply a desire to operate independently of taxes and other regulations.

Fronobulax...I understand and as you know I have made no emphatic conclusions or accusations. I have simply outlined a combination of practices and conditions that in combination should cause any cautious consumer to take pause. Additionally, I have implied my doubts that a credible and reputable organization such as Martin would allow authorization of a contract servicer who practices under such a combination of practices and conditions.....although in at least this case they clearly do. The 2 guitar shops that I have used as drop-points in the past have offered no guarantees as it relates to their servicer relationship which appears rather 'loosy goosy'. Admittedly I did not ask a lot of specific questions....and I didn't give it much thought. As I move forward in the world of guitar repairs...I will be certain to do so.
 

adorshki

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The 2 guitar shops that I have used as drop-points in the past have offered no guarantees as it relates to their servicer relationship which appears rather 'loosy goosy'.
For non-warranty work that's probably par for the course.
BUT:
In the case of your "Martin authorized" provider, the big reason for "authorization" is for warranty work.
In that case I'm sure that the shop that sold the new warranted guitar needs to use an authorized provider in order to guarantee continuance of warranty (and that clause is also probably part of their dealer's franchise), and that protection is also part of the subcontract between them and the repair shop.
BOTH parties need to be authorized by the maker or the maker probably won't pay for the warranty repair.
The maker is primarily concerned with making sure the shop that's authorized to make repairs is capable of determining what actually qualifies for warranty repair, AND won't cause new warranty claims or invalidate it through shoddy repairs.
If something goes sideways because of a bad warranty repair, the dealer is protected because they complied with the terms of the warranty (use an authorized repair center) and thus you're protected.
That's the way it worked with Guild when Fender discontinued factory repairs:
The first step is always to contact the dealer who sold the guitar.
They will then handle the warranty claim either in-house or by subcontracting to the authorized repair center.
Repair centers are not necessarily retail establishments and may not need the types of licensing associated with "normal" retail businesses.
THAT's what I was getting at yesterday.
Some shops just really don't want to deal with an end customer.
They don't advertise because they don't want every Tom Dick and Harry calling 'em up or just walking into the store with a bunch of questions about why their repair will cost anything.
When they only deal with professional dealers the common industry practices are already mutually understood and they don't have to re-build that wheel for every job.
IF he decides to take on a customer directly it's at his discretion.
Although I agree that a cash-only model and lack of local business licenses would raise my eyebrows too.

Admittedly I did not ask a lot of specific questions....and I didn't give it much thought. As I move forward in the world of guitar repairs...I will be certain to do so.
Right.
For NON-warranty work you need to proceed just like anything else and if they don't give a disclosure before taking in the job, ask 'em what the warranty on the repair will be, just like with autos.
Seems like I can recall at least one story here of the store pointing the finger at the repair shop and disavowing any responsibility for brokering the work.
Seems like exactly the reason for the principle of caveat emptor.
 
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fronobulax

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Fronobulax...I understand and as you know I have made no emphatic conclusions or accusations. I have simply outlined a combination of practices and conditions that in combination should cause any cautious consumer to take pause. Additionally, I have implied my doubts that a credible and reputable organization such as Martin would allow authorization of a contract servicer who practices under such a combination of practices and conditions.....although in at least this case they clearly do. The 2 guitar shops that I have used as drop-points in the past have offered no guarantees as it relates to their servicer relationship which appears rather 'loosy goosy'. Admittedly I did not ask a lot of specific questions....and I didn't give it much thought. As I move forward in the world of guitar repairs...I will be certain to do so.

I think we're in violent agreement :) I am reacting to generalizations about business practices that do not match my experience.
 

adorshki

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I understand. No violence intended. :)

Just to catch you up, Frono coined that play on words (as opposed to "violent disagreement" ) after some rather heated discourse with another member many years ago.
The humorous irony was that after at least a couple of pages of posts they came to realize they actually agreed on the concept being debated but only disagreed on the semantics of the terms they were using in the "argument".
And a new forum catchphrase was born.
This coincidentally led to his formulation of one of the bedrock principles of Artificial Intelligence, when he was at work developing the postbot ver 1.0:
"All Intelligence is Artificial by definition".
:friendly_wink:
 
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