My F-512 Gets a New Pickup for Christmas

I have been experimenting with some new (-ish) technology that I believe many of you may be interested in. For those with piezo-based pickups in your guitars, a company called Audio Sprockets has released a gamechanging stomp box called the ToneDexter. Think Fishman Aura, but with the ability to create your own "images" that sound like YOUR Guild, not someone else's guitar!

Essentially (and oversimplified), you plug in a mic AND you plug in your pickup. Following a simple set of instructions, you "train" your pickup to sound more like your mic. The manufacturer calls the resultant signal a WaveMap, and it can be saved in one of 22 locations. I love this thing! Here is a photo:



But the FUN doesn't stop there! One of the partners in Audio Sprockets, creators of the ToneDexter, is James May. James recently released a new pickup that is truly ingenious. He calls it the Ultra Tonic.

For those who may be interested, I detail the installation process in an article on my website, The Ultra Tonic Pickup.


If you are unfamiliar with this new passive pickup, think K&K Pure Mini, with an extra disc to double-up on the (typically quiet) 1st string (and it actually works!), and a second extra disc that works in conjunction with a small circuit board permanently attached to the endpin jack to provide for user-configurable feedback suppression (that actually works!). Here is a photo of the pickup:




The most notorious feedback-prone guitar I own is my 1976 Guild F-512. It is a jumbo defier of all things amplified. It laughs at me when I think I am going to outfit it with an acceptable pickup system that will provide good string-to-string balance (Ha!), articulate note output instead of muddy overtones (Ha HA!), and be able to actually turn the volume up without sending the occupants of the building running, covering their their ears (HA HA HA!).


I recorded my 12 string using only a Shure KSM141 microphone. I re-recorded that same musical piece using the trusty LR Baggs Anthem pickup that I had installed years earlier (when they first came out). The Anthem combines an UST with a soundboard-mounted near-field microphone. An onboard preamplifier gives the UST the responsibility for handling the (otherwise boomy) lower frequencies, while the mids and highs are assigned to the microphone. It is one of the few pickups I could get a reasonable volume with in a large venue, but not without the dreaded piezo quack. The third clip is recorded using the Ultra Tonic pickup, the signal ran through an Audio Sprockets ToneDexter trained with that same Shure KSM141 microphone.

I posted this recording up on SoundCloud. You can listen to it here (don't hesitate to click back and forth on the visual sound wave to get a good comparison of the various recordings):

F-512 with Ultra Tonic pickup

Chris, the pickup sounds great. The other pickup sounded good, too, but it was different. A lot of bass and maybe mid came through and colored your playing. Still liked the Baggs, just saying'.

One thing. The non-pickup recording of your guitar through the ksm-141 was not as loud as the Baggs and/or the James May/Tone Dexter recordings. I would have like to have heard them all on the same level.

Still, the one takeaway from any version is that I really, really want a good F-512 now. Thank you for the inspirational playing.

Harry

I'm with Harry as I like the LR Baggs quite a bit. A tad bassy but I like that. The JM/Tone Dexter was probably more balanced, and sounded nice as well. Sound is such a personal preference thing anyway. Thanks for putting this up!! :encouragement:

Harry, thank you for your thoughts. If I get some time I'll try and re-mix that recording, evening out the volume. As you may have guessed, I rushed to get it posted. The signals are all raw, with no processing whatsoever. I agree with your assessment: the Anthem is bass-heavy and midrangey when compared to the mic, producing the typical response from a piezo-electric Under Saddle Transducer.

What is interesting to me is that, while I am (still, after all these years) on a quest to get a pickup sounding more like my un-plugged acoustic guitar, much of the guitar-playing world has been trained to accept - if not prefer - the (un-natural, colored) sound produced by the pickup(s) and/or preamp(s). Who'd a thunk it? I really like this Ultra Tonic with the ToneDexter combination, as it is the closest to my goal I have ever been.

And when you have a guitar that sounds as nice, un-plugged, as a Guild...

Why mess with perfection, right?

Thanks, Tom. Merry Christmas, by the way!

CC,

I do like the Ultra Tonic/Tone Dexter better than the Anthem, but it's the difference between Great and Good, maybe even Very Good on the second or third listen.

Great always costs a bunch more than Very Good, doesn't it?

Again, your playing was wonderful. Merry Xmas to you, too.

Hi

Thank you soooo much

I have F512 - and last gig was success with Songbird but not so with F512 - quick listening ( twice ) made me want LR Baggs - maybe I go into that. But first - now that I have heard it done - I do some more experimenting with my present pickups - after all I do have Behringer X32, that I can use as preamp .....

Cheers

Personally I like the just Shure mic or first one .
Second one had the added UST sound giving a more thin tone to my ears . The last one was ok but focused on mids and lacked warmth .

Pretty cool, Chris! Thanks for posting about this.

So, is this synthesized sound -- kind of like a sampler? I mean, is the sound really coming from your guitar, or is your guitar a synthesizer controller?

Maybe it doesn't really matter anymore.

chazmo said:

Pretty cool, Chris! Thanks for posting about this.[

So, is this synthesized sound -- kind of like a sampler? I mean, is the sound really coming from your guitar, or is your guitar a synthesizer controller?

Maybe it doesn't really matter anymore.

Click to expand...

More like a sampler I would say , i woulld there could be a file share or preset programs based off other guitars and have the option to incorporate that into your sound instead of amp modeler its a guitar modeler .

Here’s the vid for the Dexter . I like the concept but I still hear UST guess I’m to darn picky anyway born to be different ! Lol

chazmo said:

So, is this synthesized sound -- kind of like a sampler?

Click to expand...

Not in the least, Charlie. But, in keeping with tradition, permit me to explain using sweeping generalizations...

The guitar sounds most like itself when un-amplified. To make a guitar louder, we begin to compromise. We can amplify an acoustic guitar using a microphone, a piezo-electric transducer, or a magnetic pickup. Whether used alone or combined into multi-source systems, we understand the benefits and drawbacks of each technology. Mic's deliver the most accurate representation and are the most prone to feedback. Piezo's (SoundBoard, Saddle or Under Saddle Transducers) as a group are less prone to feedback than microphones, but sound like piezo-electric transducers. You make a compromise in the pristine reproduction offered by a feedback-prone microphone to adopt a more road-worthy solution. Piezo technology serves it's purpose and comprises the largest market for acoustic guitar amplification. The magnetic (pole piece) pickup, usually sound hole mounted (except for the Taylor ES 1 systems), best represent the sound of an electric guitar on your acoustic instrument, but can also provide good resistance to feedback.

Huge reveal - Many, many players like, if not prefer, the sound of the pickup over some precise reproduction of the pristine sound of the guitar at a higher volume.

SoundBoard Transducers (SBT's, such as the K&K Pure Mini, JJB, Trance Audio Amulet, Dazzo, etc.) are well regarded for their ability to represent an acoustic guitar sound in an amplified setting. Under Saddle Transducers (UST's, such as the Martin Thinline, Fishman Matrix, Baggs Element, Highlander, etc.) are well regarded for their ability to deliver an approximation of that same acoustic guitar sound, but at higher volumes before feedback than any SBT.

So we compromise; stage performers, especially in bands, select the UST's. Audiophiles, especially private players, select SBT's. I am personally uninterested in magnetic sound hole pickups. I own several and use them for comparison purposes (to make a point) for guitar customers.

On my Guild F-512 I have installed a James May Engineering pickup called the Ultra Tonic. It includes a series of discs that mount under the bridgeplate, along with a clever circuit board attached to the endpin jack (inside the guitar) that supplies a level of feedback suppression never before seen! Out of the gate, this SoundBoard Transducer pickup improves on the competition (K&K Pure Mini, JJB, Trance Audio Amulet, Dazzo, etc.) by supplying an extra disc to bolster the (typically quiet) 1st string, as well as providing a level of feedback control that is non-existent in any other pickup. The summary: If you use or have been considering one of the competitive SBT's listed above, you would benefit from this pickup. If, like me, you have been relying on an Under Saddle Transducer pickup SOLEY for the feedback control, but would prefer a more acoustic sound, you would benefit from this pickup.

In addition to adding this pickup to my guitar, I have replaced all external preamps with one new super preamp called the ToneDexter. It is NOT synthesizing the sound, rather it is learning the difference between the sound coming from the pickup and the sound coming from a microphone (you supplied for a one-time training session), and using that information to create a transformation called a WaveMap. This WaveMap is a combination of a proprietary digital signal processing technology together with a pristine analog signal path that makes up for the missing body tone that accompanies any piezo-electric transducer. The ToneDexter does NOT require an Ultra Tonic pickup. It is a preamp that any piezo pickup would benefit from.

Combining both the Ultra Tonic pickup AND the ToneDexter will get you closer to a mic'd sound than any pickup system presently available.

I just got a pair of JBL LSR305 monitors, so this was a great time to see if I could hear small differences.

1) I like my Ovation 12 string... but, after listening to yours, my F-512 GAS has returned. Sigh.

2) I listened to all three and found the Anthem mic boosted the mids and highs, where as the Dexter rig muted them. I'm sure it's early in your setup with it, but I think you'll need to recover some of the high end before you get back to the mic'd guitar sound. I really like the idea of it monitoring the output of the guitar ! That opens up a lot of options, including some signal processing to clamp down on feedback, should you get some, automatically.

Now, I'll go look it up and find it's more than I want to spend !

I'm not messing with my K&K pure mini, but this is a very informative thread! Thanks, Chris!

walrus

Fascinating, Chris. Although, I have to say that this "learning the differences" and creation of a sound mapping sounds like modeling-based (sampled) synthesis to me. Interesting twist, though, on the filling in the blanks approach rather than just sample playback. That really does make this a different kind of system. The feedback prevention is probably enough of an enticement to overlook any concerns of synthesis that any purist might have.

BTW, I agree with your comments about many people preferring (or, at least, expecting) the quacky, non-natural sound of piezo pickups to natural sound. I wonder if we can blame Bob Taylor for that?

My fondest wishes, Chris. Miss ya'.

JohnW63 said:

I just got a pair of JBL LSR305 monitors, so this was a great time to see if I could hear small differences.

1) I like my Ovation 12 string... but, after listening to yours, my F-512 GAS has returned. Sigh.

2) I listened to all three and found the Anthem mic boosted the mids and highs, where as the Dexter rig muted them. I'm sure it's early in your setup with it, but I think you'll need to recover some of the high end before you get back to the mic'd guitar sound. I really like the idea of it monitoring the output of the guitar ! That opens up a lot of options, including some signal processing to clamp down on feedback, should you get some, automatically.

Now, I'll go look it up and find it's more than I want to spend !

Click to expand...

John, you're totally hosed now, especially after listening to Chris play. There is no comparison to the F-512 sound, unplugged. It will rock your world. Trust me. I have been there.

Have to stick my spoon into this soup one more time.

Having some neat acoustics - and dealing with different pick-ups etc for over 40 years - having my history in recording studio and FOH mixing engineer - loudspeaker builder - and some other stuff - this thread gives me some thoughts.

30-40 years ago I was looking for certain sound - and got fairly close to what I wanted - simply by experimenting. Had no measuring tools back then.

Now I have SMAART measuring program + GOOD microphones ( lots of them ) - I could feed one channel with reference mic and the other from the line output of my guitar. SMAART has a feature, where it aligns the two signals so, that they arrive in sync - usually the accuracy is fractions of an inch in distance. Hence the guitar should be mounted in some stand to be kept in place - or the microphone should be attached with some kind contraption to about 25-30 inches from guitar. Then comes the question of surrounding surfaces - are they reflecting or absorbing and at which frequencies ..... All this must be considered very carefully before proceeding.

Examples of good microphones : MBHO MBNM440 - AKG 451 - Neumann KM 140 - Neumann digital - Bruel & Kjaer - so basically good quality studio condenser + I have AKG-built JBL measuring microphone.

Obviously when connecting a passive USP one has to have a preamp or DI-box with very high input impedance - 1 megaohm and up is preferable.

After solving these minor problems I have as result the curves of both signals and can compare them. From there I can use filters - analog or digital - to make the direct signal match with microphone signal.

Basically most USP:s can be made sound much better this way - also this method can be used to experiment with different saddle materials etc, since all that affects the pickup sound maybe even more radically than the acoustic sound.

This is exiting - I had spent years without playing - then I came onto this forum - got a little more active - then a friend persuaded me to perform at their party about a mont ago - then I bought another Guild ( for cabin ) and now I already decided I do not like it that much - because it is dreadnaught - not my favourite shape somehow - so I am letting it go. I will ask Musikhaus Thomann - I am sure they will play with me - I will buy three guitars on condition, that I´ll keep one and send two back. They are new China-Westerly M-240E - Jumbo Junior Maple - OM-240CE. They all have the AP-1 pickup-system. One of these should be a fine addition to my existing Guilds. And also serve as cabin-guitar in summer.

Rayk - are you reading ???


To all @ LTG - thank you for inspiration and happy new year !

Thanks for the post about the Dexter. Always good to find out what's out there and hear how it's working for others.
I've been using the LR Baggs Session DI and have had great luck with my Mandolins and Guitars. It was a big improvement over what I was using in the past.

It works very well with the K&K, internal mic and other types of pickups.



It's great to hear about the Dexter and how well it has worked for you.
This something I'd like to look into further.
Merry Christmas.

Chris,
I very much like the sound of your F512 over the mic. (I'm using a Cambridge Audio DacMagic100 an d Tannoy Reveal 402 speakers.)
The sound of the Anthem for me is what we nowadays are used to from modern pickups: detailed but kind of aggressive high frequencies and some quacking. I like the deep and clear bass without getting too boomy.
With the new system the recording - for my ears - loses all brightness, sounding a bit dull and synthetic, like being miked behind a thick curtain.
Not (yet) a fan of the ToneDexter, but thank you for introducing it here.

Looking forward to hearing more of your very nice recordings!

Markus :smile:

markus said:

Chris,
I very much like the sound of your F512 over the mic. (I'm using a Cambridge Audio DacMagic100 an d Tannoy Reveal 402 speakers.)
The sound of the Anthem for me is what we nowadays are used to from modern pickups: detailed but kind of aggressive high frequencies and some quacking. I like the deep and clear bass without getting too boomy.
With the new system the recording - for my ears - loses all brightness, sounding a bit dull and synthetic, like being miked behind a thick curtain.
Not (yet) a fan of the ToneDexter, but thank you for introducing it here.

Looking forward to hearing more of your very nice recordings!

Markus :smile:

Click to expand...

Happy holidays to you, Markus!

Sadly, I don't think you and Sylvia were at LMG3 where we got to hear and play with Chris. Wow, is all I can say. Chris is the real deal, and it's unbelievably great that he shares this stuff with us as his internal quest for perfection continues! (Thanks, Chris!!!)

For the record, I basically agree with your description, Markus, of the tone in Chris' three recordings. The differences are striking to hear with a good pair of headphones. And, to my ears, neither system is even close to the straight mic. recording.

While feedback would certainly be an issue (compared to the ToneDexter), I would love to hear the D-TAR multi-source for comparison (not asking for it, Chris, just saying. ) At LMG4, we heard that system used on stage at Ski Sundown and it was far-and-away the best system -- as in NO COMPARISON -- that hit the stage that day. I don't know if that system was run into the acoustic amp or directly into the mixing board.

Fondest wishes, guys!

I think the JM with Dexter was my favorite. Sounded darker which is a matter of personal preference for me. I am with Gilded though would it be worth the price difference between the LR Baggs and the JM with Dexter? Not sure. All recording sounded awesome and I really dig your playing.