Replacement tuners ??

Raf702

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I have a 95 Guild D4, with I believe are Grover rotomatic 102. They measured out to be the same as the Rotomatics 102 according to the dimensions on Stewmac.

I would like to replace them with open gear tuners such as the Grover 18:1 sta-tite. Anyone know if these will fit?

I hoping the bottom screw hole and the peg hole will line up. And screwing in the top hole should be no problem. I want to make sure I get the right kind.

I appreciate anyone’s help. Thanks!
 

swiveltung

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Matching tuners can be a bit disconcerting for sure. They seem to dimension each one slightly different! But why devalue the guitar? Is a tuner bad? They seldom are.
 

davismanLV

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And just to add to swiveltung's statement above, if it's a Grover tuner and it's bad, they will replace it for free. You just have to contact them and they will either repair or replace the tuner. It's their lifetime guarantee! But if you just wanted open back tuners, that's a different story.

scan0001zq.jpg
 

chazmo

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Raf, I'd contact Grover to find out if the Sta-tite match the Rotomatic dimensions. I will say that I replaced the original Grover Rotos on a 1971 F-50R years ago with a brand new set and the fit was fine. The ferrule was a different size, but it still fit.

In your case, I'd also be interested in what the factory is using these days, which is a Gotoh open-back tuner. You might be able to get more info (and maybe parts) from Cordoba if you contact them.
 

Raf702

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Matching tuners can be a bit disconcerting for sure. They seem to dimension each one slightly different! But why devalue the guitar? Is a tuner bad? They seldom are.

The tuners are fine, just cosmetic upgrade. I like the look of open gear tuners, and I’ve used them before on another guitar and tuning is much more seamless and smoother.

And just to add to swiveltung's statement above, if it's a Grover tuner and it's bad, they will replace it for free. You just have to contact them and they will either repair or replace the tuner. It's their lifetime guarantee! But if you just wanted open back tuners, that's a different story.

scan0001zq.jpg

Yeah I just want open gear tuners not for any broken replacements.

Raf, I'd contact Grover to find out if the Sta-tite match the Rotomatic dimensions. I will say that I replaced the original Grover Rotos on a 1971 F-50R years ago with a brand new set and the fit was fine. The ferrule was a different size, but it still fit.

In your case, I'd also be interested in what the factory is using these days, which is a Gotoh open-back tuner. You might be able to get more info (and maybe parts) from Cordoba if you contact them.

I did reach out to Cordoba, so I’m still waiting on their response.
 

Nuuska

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Raf702 writes :
"
The tuners are fine, just cosmetic upgrade.
I like the look of open gear tuners, and I’ve used them before on another guitar and tuning is much more seamless and smoother."

I can see the point of cosmetics - there is no arguing personal opinions about esthetics - ( I personally prefer gold-plated closed gear ) - but please explain what physical property makes tuning more seamless and smoother, if tuners are open vs closed ? I would think it is more about turn ratio and quality of workmanship .


On Gotoh site they write : "The improved performance and durability which the SX510 series provides, thanks to GOTOH’s unique design and manufacturing, gives you the chance to experience a sound you’ve never heard before."

Sounds like sales jargon to me - why on earth would it affect the sound that much ??? Vaguely similar to putting Lego-bricks under you hifi-cables to improve sound ???
 

Raf702

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Raf702 writes :
"
The tuners are fine, just cosmetic upgrade.
I like the look of open gear tuners, and I’ve used them before on another guitar and tuning is much more seamless and smoother."

I can see the point of cosmetics - there is no arguing personal opinions about esthetics - ( I personally prefer gold-plated closed gear ) - but please explain what physical property makes tuning more seamless and smoother, if tuners are open vs closed ? I would think it is more about turn ratio and quality of workmanship .


On Gotoh site they write : "The improved performance and durability which the SX510 series provides, thanks to GOTOH’s unique design and manufacturing, gives you the chance to experience a sound you’ve never heard before."

Sounds like sales jargon to me - why on earth would it affect the sound that much ??? Vaguely similar to putting Lego-bricks under you hifi-cables to improve sound ???

It felt seamless and smoother, not saying they are built to be seamless and smoother. The turn ratio felt better as well.
 

bert

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Re: 2017's new Gotoh 500/700 series tuners. The 510s are replacements for Rotomatics with same bushing size, etc.... either way you go the top screw will require a new hole in the wood.

Last year, I replaced the Sta-tites that came with my 2014 Martin 000-18 with the new Gotoh 710 tuners. IMO, the new Gotoh tuners are excellent and a significant upgrade from the Grovers. Turn smoother, hold great and don't stick. bert
 

Nuuska

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Hello

If it is the turn ratio 1:18 instead of 1:14 in OLDER Rotomatic tuners - then you can replace them with new Rotomatic 102-18 tuners, that are identical in size, so your guitar will not be degraded. They are about 51.- USD at StewMac. Then when changing tuners, it is fine time to clean and lubricate the nut grooves.

This should help you technically - unfortunately you will not get the open-tuner esthetics.
 

Raf702

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Re: 2017's new Gotoh 500/700 series tuners. The 510s are replacements for Rotomatics with same bushing size, etc.... either way you go the top screw will require a new hole in the wood.

Last year, I replaced the Sta-tites that came with my 2014 Martin 000-18 with the new Gotoh 710 tuners. IMO, the new Gotoh tuners are excellent and a significant upgrade from the Grovers. Turn smoother, hold great and don't stick. bert

I went to Allparts, the nickel version is out of stock. They do have the gold which I was already looking into. I might choose these over the Sta-tites.
 

Raf702

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Hello

If it is the turn ratio 1:18 instead of 1:14 in OLDER Rotomatic tuners - then you can replace them with new Rotomatic 102-18 tuners, that are identical in size, so your guitar will not be degraded. They are about 51.- USD at StewMac. Then when changing tuners, it is fine time to clean and lubricate the nut grooves.

This should help you technically - unfortunately you will not get the open-tuner esthetics.

I’m not technically inclined, but how would I check if my current tuners are 18:1 ratio?

If going open gear requires drilling an additional hole for the top mount and reaming the shaft hole. Then I’m ok with that, as long as it’s done properly. Which I’ll be taking it to a luthier for this job any way. Just to be on the safe side and not screw anything up myself.
 

kakerlak

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I’m not technically inclined, but how would I check if my current tuners are 18:1 ratio?

If going open gear requires drilling an additional hole for the top mount and reaming the shaft hole. Then I’m ok with that, as long as it’s done properly. Which I’ll be taking it to a luthier for this job any way. Just to be on the safe side and not screw anything up myself.

Turn the tuner so the string hole in its post is lined up with some sort of reference point and then count how many turns of the tuner button it takes to bring the shaft all the way around one turn. If it's 14 turns, then they're 14-1. If it's 18 turns...

As far as replacing Grovers, I know that Klusons and Grover Rotomatics can use the same bottom hole, but IIRC, Statites have a little different spacing there. Don't forget to buy conversion bushings to account for the difference in size b/w the larger Rotomatic shaft holes and smaller press-fit busing holes.
 

tommym

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......Don't forget to buy conversion bushings to account for the difference in size b/w the larger Rotomatic shaft holes and smaller press-fit busing holes.

That was my next question: The Rotomatics have bigger holes top and bottom due to the screw in hex bushing....correct? If so, are the bottom holes are just left as is (oversized), and covered by the Sta-tite's base plate?

Tommy
 

adorshki

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It felt seamless and smoother, not saying they are built to be seamless and smoother. The turn ratio felt better as well.

That could be the whole reason right there.
Personally I prefer closed tuners simply for that fact the gear are protected from contamination by whatever might accidentally get into 'em.
 

Raf702

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This seems like a bit of a hassle to replace with open gear tuners.

The Sta-tites and the Gotoh SE700 both come with bushings, I’m assuming those are the conversion bushings you are referring to?
 

bert

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The Grover Statite tuners and Gotoh 710s are a compatible design, neither has the nut/washer. Removing the washer on the face of the headstock with Rotomatics will leave racoon eyes when replaced with either of the above mentioned.

The Statites are not compatible with the Rotomatics, however the Gotoh 510s are. The 510's have the same nut/washer, post hole size and only require a new top hole/screw. Pictures say a thousand words. bert

s5O6PlF.jpg
 
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Raf702

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The Grover Statite tuners and Gotoh 710s are a compatible design, neither has the nut/washer. Removing the washer on the face of the headstock with Rotomatics will leave racoon eyes when replaced with either of the above mentioned.

The Statites are not compatible with the Rotomatics, however the Gotoh 510s are. The 510's have the same nut/washer, post hole size and only require a new top hole/screw. Pictures say a thousand words. bert

s5O6PlF.jpg

That pic says a lot, and that “raccoon eyes” looks ugly. I know it’s a small detail, but still. And the 510 are closed back, I’ll have to either leave the tuners alone or deal with the raccoon eyes.
 
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